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The X Button - Interview: Return to PopoloCrois


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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:48 pm Reply with quote
bj_waters wrote:
Nice, but you might trying a little too hard now. (Is there some journalism class that teaches people to do these things?)


Alliterations are always amusing, although antonymous attitudes are also altogether acceptable.

belvadeer wrote:
1. I was going to ask if Native Americans are still getting offended over this sort of stuff, but I changed my mind after reading this: http://www.refinery29.com/2016/01/100504/chris-hemsworth-native-american-racist-instagram

It does beg the question as to why the Native Americans aren't getting mad at the Japanese for portraying their culture like this. I guess it's just easier to scream at and sue companies in North America, where everyone's close enough to be brought to court, even though the North American publishers have nothing to do with the original content of a Japanese-developed game.


To an American, most things from Japan that aren't cars or TVs would be more obscure than domestic stuff. When you're talking about depictions of Native American stereotypes in stuff like Wild Arms, Cyborg 009, or Mega Man 6, chances are people who would complain about this sort of thing hadn't even heard about them, or don't know about them enough to complain about them.

BadNewsBlues wrote:
Funny we still have The Cleveland Indians and Washington Redskins still named as.....The Cleveland Indians and Washington Redskins....along with Johnny Depp portraying Tonto in "The Lone Ranger" movie....because.


Also the Seminoles in Florida. I remember that team's name was under attack until the chief of the Seminoles stepped up and said he felt honored to have a football team as good as they are named after his peope.

CrownKlown wrote:
I will put it this way, odds that changing the one character from Indian to cowboy brings in another sale is close to zero, while odds it takes away an actual sale might still be low but a lot more likely; and the odder the game Ie stuff like monster mono, the greater a chance the censorship does not gain sales but loses them.

This is not an issue about right or wrong, but just some common business sense.


What they're afraid of is not lowered sales (in the short term), but of the wrong people discovering it and creating a media spectacle over it (and the negative PR can cause sales drops in the long term). We're in an age where a high-profile person can say something bigoted and it marks that person for the rest of their lives.
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Snakebit1995



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 842
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:05 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:


BadNewsBlues wrote:
Funny we still have The Cleveland Indians and Washington Redskins still named as.....The Cleveland Indians and Washington Redskins....along with Johnny Depp portraying Tonto in "The Lone Ranger" movie....because.


Also the Seminoles in Florida. I remember that team's name was under attack until the chief of the Seminoles stepped up and said he felt honored to have a football team as good as they are named after his peope.





I believe FSU has gone out of their way to obtain official approval from the Seminole people and a representative of the Tribe is present at games to insure that the pregame ceremonial spear throw is done in a respectful and honorable manor.

Also on the Indians, that is generic enough to be justifiable as a team name, I think they recently even changed their Team Logo to be more respectful.

The Redskins float in an odd area, the name is offensive, but I think if you went up to most strangers on the street and just asked "What's the first thing that comes to mind when I say Redskins." most people would probably say the Football team, not a racial slur.
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Mr. Oshawott



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 6773
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:13 am Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:
Tsubasa's outfit was changed for the English version, but Kiria's outfit change actually happened between the development stage and end release of the Japanese version, so that has nothing to do with the English localization.

Thanks for the info; I've edited the post to include that. Smile
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Covnam



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3678
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:20 am Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:
Mr. Oshawott wrote:
If Nintendo of America's censoring of Fire Emblem Fates and Bravely Second isn't bad enough, they're in their first stages of censoring the upcoming Fire Emblem title Tōkyō Mirage Sessions #FE. 2016 is indeed turning out to be yet another bleak year of censored gaming for Nintendo. Sad


Tsubasa's outfit was changed for the English version, but Kiria's outfit change actually happened between the development stage and end release of the Japanese version, so that has nothing to do with the English localization.


Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.
Turns out Destructoid had a news piece on it as well: http://www.destructoid.com/goodbye-zipper-panties-kiria-wears-pants-in-genei-ibun-roku-fe-324106.phtml
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Levitz9



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:37 am Reply with quote
Chester McCool wrote:
Riddle me this, Batman. If people scream for diversity and games, and when diversity does show up you get Native Americans getting ushered out the door for white American cowboys no less, how is diversity supposed to happen? Does this also mean Red XIII is in danger of being censored in the FF7 remake as well?


Diverity based on stereotypes is no better than not being represented at all.

I'm Puerto Rican; if someone's going to put a Puerto-Rican character in something, telling me I should be happy because the character is a drunk, poncho-wearing man with a sombrero and not another white guy is an insult.

You don't get diversity by just propagating stereotypes. You get it by showing people as people and not costumes.
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TrustTheFungus



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:50 am Reply with quote
Is this really racist? Looking at the costume the aspects that look Native American to me are: leather clothes with tassels, tribal tattoos, and decorative feathers. Were any or all of these never part of traditional Native American outfits? If they are, is it really racist? How is it any more racist than a samurai class with traditional Japanese armor? I don't know anything about Native American history or culture, so this is an honest question coming from my ignorance.
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Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:08 pm Reply with quote
It's not even a historical thing. Right now, in the US, there are lawsuits and issues with portrayals of Native Americans. The most obvious one is the stuff with the Washington Redskins ("redskin" being a derogatory term). The Johnny Depp Lone Ranger movie, where a white man played a Native American (despite plenty of Native American actors available for the role) also stirred it up.

What it comes down to, is that Native American portrayals, especially those done without Native American input, is a very sensitive subject, and could lead to lawsuits and major protests. I agree that it needed to be changed for US release (EU is another matter), because despite all the "censorship" claims from "fans," as soon as the media at large got a hold of the Native American outfit (remember, it's an Asterisk. Which means your blatantly white characters will have these outfits as well), there'd be such a blow up, and likely calls for it to be banned. I'd rather a change in outfit than the mass media backlash.

As for Tomahawk becoming Gunslinger (I believe that's the new name), there aren't a whole lot of gun-toting "base classes" in media. Especially if they're going for a "wild west" idea (not sure if they are, but it is a possibility), a cowboy makes sense. Especially since there's minimal editing to the costume (basically, they took away the paint and added a hat) to make it work. Quite frankly, guns make more sense for a cowboy class than a Native American class to start with.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5987
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:26 pm Reply with quote
Levitz9 wrote:


I'm Puerto Rican; if someone's going to put a Puerto-Rican character in something, telling me I should be happy because the character is a drunk, poncho-wearing man with a sombrero and not another white guy is an insult.



When did they start portraying Puerto Ricans with the same level of flair that's usually reserved for Mexicans?
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NearEasternerJ1





PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:29 pm Reply with quote
Levitz9 wrote:
Chester McCool wrote:
Riddle me this, Batman. If people scream for diversity and games, and when diversity does show up you get Native Americans getting ushered out the door for white American cowboys no less, how is diversity supposed to happen? Does this also mean Red XIII is in danger of being censored in the FF7 remake as well?


Diverity based on stereotypes is no better than not being represented at all.

I'm Puerto Rican; if someone's going to put a Puerto-Rican character in something, telling me I should be happy because the character is a drunk, poncho-wearing man with a sombrero and not another white guy is an insult.

You don't get diversity by just propagating stereotypes. You get it by showing people as people and not costumes.


Most Puerto Ricans ARE white, though. In fact, more so than the USA proper, which is about 72% white,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Puerto_Ricans

"Hispanic" is not a race. You do realize that White Spaniards, which include Basques are ALSO Hispanic, right? Same with the term "Latino".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentines_of_European_descent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans
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NearEasternerJ1





PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:36 pm Reply with quote
One of the definitions of "Native" is simply being born, which would mean close to 90% of Americans are native. This "native" crap is annoying. Most Americans are native.

I was born in Canada to a Yemeni-Jew and a Qatari Muslim. I may be "ancestrally" native to the Southern part of the Arabian Peninsula, but I was born and raised in Canada, so thus native, since I was born there. Me being 100% Arab doesn't mean I'm not a Canadian native. Me not being a member a First Nations member doesn't mean I'm not native.
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Chester McCool



Joined: 06 Jan 2016
Posts: 322
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:16 pm Reply with quote
Levitz9 wrote:
Diverity based on stereotypes is no better than not being represented at all.

I'm Puerto Rican; if someone's going to put a Puerto-Rican character in something, telling me I should be happy because the character is a drunk, poncho-wearing man with a sombrero and not another white guy is an insult.

You don't get diversity by just propagating stereotypes. You get it by showing people as people and not costumes.


What stereotype did Aimee have? She wasn't slapping her palm against her mouth repeatedly howling and screaming like those old Looney Tunes depictions. She was just a warrior from a small tribe.

Dessa wrote:
Quite frankly, guns make more sense for a cowboy class than a Native American class to start with.
But Native Americans did use guns, they even modeled some of their own weapons to mimic the appearance of guns like Aimee's weapon. Whether it's a coincidence or someone at Square Enix did their research I don't know
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NearEasternerJ1





PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:53 pm Reply with quote
Paiprince wrote:
Snakebit1995 wrote:

Basically Censorship has to be involuntary and forced, not a chosen practice made to appeal to a larger audience.


Uh, no. What has been done is self-censorship which NoA and Treehouse themselves openly, willingly and stubbornly done as per their own decisions. No one was pointing guns on their heads making them alter it against their free will.

And how laughable it is now to defend such acts as parts of "localization" when people were calling out on Rice balls being called "donuts" in Pokemon or disco guns in Gundam Seed, but when it suddenly irks their creep senses, then they fully justify needless alterations.


Don't compare changes in games to changes in anime. It's not a like for like. Two. Completely different mediums. Anime is animation and thus is life. To strip anime of its content is to strip life out of it. What some girl said in a game is irrelevant. Only gameplay matters.
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Levitz9



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:13 pm Reply with quote
NearEasternerJ1 wrote:
Levitz9 wrote:
Chester McCool wrote:
Riddle me this, Batman. If people scream for diversity and games, and when diversity does show up you get Native Americans getting ushered out the door for white American cowboys no less, how is diversity supposed to happen? Does this also mean Red XIII is in danger of being censored in the FF7 remake as well?


Diverity based on stereotypes is no better than not being represented at all.

I'm Puerto Rican; if someone's going to put a Puerto-Rican character in something, telling me I should be happy because the character is a drunk, poncho-wearing man with a sombrero and not another white guy is an insult.

You don't get diversity by just propagating stereotypes. You get it by showing people as people and not costumes.


Most Puerto Ricans ARE white, though. In fact, more so than the USA proper, which is about 72% white,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Puerto_Ricans

"Hispanic" is not a race. You do realize that White Spaniards, which include Basques are ALSO Hispanic, right? Same with the term "Latino".


I'm going to ask that you not be that insultingly pedantic towards me about how Puerto Ricans like me look, seeing as I live in Puerto Rico, my sister is a passing-for-white Puerto Rican (that was lots of fun in elementary school, lemme tell ya), and that Puerto Rico's history with Spain is, y'know, basic school material here in Puerto Rico. Don't tell me how I'm supposed to work just because you read Wikipedia.

You failed to note anything decent about my post, either. My point still stands: if your representation is only going to be the most basic, stereotypical depiction possible, you're not doing POC a favor. Don't put a poncho on someone and say, "Here, Latinos! You're being represented!", don't smach feathered headdresses on someone and say, "Here, First Nations! You can be heroes, too!"
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NearEasternerJ1





PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:52 pm Reply with quote
Most U.S. Latinos are not POC, though. A person of color is anyone who is not white, which excludes most American Latinos. It also excludes most Argentinean and Uruguayan peoples.

Besides, most white Brits are given the most ridiculous stereotypes. It's less racial and more civic. White Americans have nothing in common with the typical White continental European.
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Snakebit1995



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 842
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:08 pm Reply with quote
Dessa wrote:
It's not even a historical thing. Right now The Johnny Depp Lone Ranger movie, where a white man played a Native American (despite plenty of Native American actors available for the role) also stirred it up.


Except that Johnny Depp is actually part Native American(Or so he claims)

Still that movie was really bad anyway so expecting a serious racial treatment from it is reaching.

This is reminding more and more of that terrible John Oliver Video from a few weeks back about Whitewashing. I normally like Last Week Tonight but that video was so misinformed and cherry picking of evidence that it sighted classic films of an era when it was okay to be racist had have white's play other races more.
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