Forum - View topicAny fans of Eureka Seven?
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sleepingforest
 Posts: 5 |
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so you guys really do care about ''efficiency" towards pace, i see. i hope you guys don't mind if i get deeper into the subject, i can learn stuff here. im confused when you guys say about 'condensed' or 'could be shorter', it feels somehow like you are saying 'yeah just get to the point and get it over with'. mm we're talking about series here, not movies which have limited time frames. no one here really wanna see those 'extra' off-topic or mood building scenarios? when you say 'stretching' or 'dragging', let it even be 'delaying'. i believe if you are talking about scenes like Naruto ep 260-261 or somewhere where Naruto fights with Orochimaru. i remember only those two starring each other and lasts about 2 episodes, i like to punch the author for it. else in other areas in E7 they're trying to build the mood there, one of the most common techniques in anime. am i missing something?
ah no worries. that confusion is gone, previously is wondering what you guys think between the two. cheers |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I don't think you're quite getting what I mean by "pacing" here. I am most certainly not saying that a story has to be all about plot, with no downtime or character-study-only time, for it to be paced correctly; if I was, then I wouldn't hold up Koi Kaze as an example of anime writing perfection. (It's the only series I've ever given an A+ grade on writing.) Almost the entire series consists of slice-of-life character development and interaction, with little true plot, yet its pacing and timing are flawless. It knows exactly how long it needs to convey a particular character trait or get a scene's point or meaning across, does that, and then continues on. E7 accomplishes that at times (most frequently in its action scenes, some of which I've commented in reviews are exceptionally well-staged), but in other places it lingers much too long on a particular subject or repeats it needlessly, as if the series feels compelled to beat its central messages into the viewer's head. Granted, that's nowhere near as big a problem in E7 as it is in series like Naruto or Bleach, nor is it pervasive, but it pops up often enough that on three occasions, for spans of several episodes, I got bored waiting for the series to stop piddling around and get to the point.
QFT. While I generally liked the characters in the cast, I found it hard to care about them that much, hence the lack of emotional appeal for me. Although I intensely disliked Anemone for much of the series, I ultimately found her and Dominic to be the more interesting couple in the end. Renton irritated me more than compelled me, and Eureka was just too wishy-washy. And yes, this is definitely a case where personal taste is affecting my judgement. The characters I find most interesting are strong heroines who can, under the right circumstances, show a vulnerable and/or emotional side, which is probably why I usually found Talho more appealing than Eureka.
Again, QFT, which is why I never expect everyone to agree with me. (Though I like it when they do!) 
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Point taken, however I honestly never felt that way and pacing is usually one of my biggest gripes with anime. I enjoyed the character oriented moments more so than the action, so I guess lingering on a certain element of the series, in those cases, didn't really bother me much. Of course, I don't think that the series is perfect either. I could note other titles that had exceptional pacing easily, but I wouldn't give such a crown to E7. It did a great job at times, and never really had a point where I felt the pacing was poor, but it wasn't its strength. Ultimately, you make a strong case and I can certainly see how you could come to the conclusions you came to. I just simply disagree and didn't see it the same way. I certainly found Eureka and Renton to be the strongest couple, and loved that it didn't take the entire series for that to come together like it does with so many other series. I liked that we saw progress with that relationship and the characters from episode 1 to 50 without reliance on many sudden revelations which are so overused. This is one of my favorites though, heh, so sorry if I came off a bit overly defensive. I'm not generally the type of person who finds it necessary to constantly demand others see things my way. I'm perfectly content if others don't enjoy it as much as I do. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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I'm a guuuuuurl. 
Well, like it matters... 
I'm going to take a wild guess that you mean either episode 35 or 37. AKA the one with Lujon and that "Fossil Disease" epidemic, or Havoc's Date episode. Even in random side-stories like those, there's some valuable info expressed. In 35, spoiler[We get to see more of Lust's past and some good character stuff on why she acts the way she does, as do some other Homunculi. Also, the Seven Sins ramble on several times about how they get alchemists to make the stone for them, but apart from the incident with Mugear and the Tringhams, this is about the only episode where you see that at work. So, not a total throwaway.] 37 I can't defend except to say that two or three scenes move the military plot into Liore, namely that of Mustang's posse. Other than that, well, it IS funny, right? 
Yeah. It depends on the TYPE of story you're telling. Fruits Basket and its ilk are well-loved by bunches of otaku, but pacing-wise you COULD say it's a nightmare. Kind of. Fruits Basket introduces lots of characters, but barely conveys any info about the curse itself or progresses any new story developments past "Tohru moves in with Sohmas." "Tohru meets Akito" "Grand finale events I won't detail" 
But it's excused entirely because Fruits Basket is a domestic drama, character focused, and learning the ins and outs of the curse is really extraneous to what needs to be conveyed, which is depth of relationships, changes in character, etc. Compare this to Death Note, which DOES need to be told "beat-for-beat" with constantly new events, complicated additions to the Death Note rules, but few character changes to be compelling. It's shonen, it's a suspenseful plot-driven story. Eureka Seven is a mecha-drama, like Gundam or something, so you come into it with expectations that it's going to be between the two above extremes. When the characters continue to whine (Renton, cough-cough) for thirty episodes and run the gambit of emotions from elation to confusion to depression to serenity but we still don't know WHY he's on Gekko State, or what Gekko State is up to, or even up against besides the pesky military whose motives remain unexplained...those with expectations are upset by the balance shift and are left grasping for story if they haven't already fallen in love with the characters. My theory is that Eureka Seven will be a big favorite of yours if you love the characters first. If, like me and Key, they don't rub off on you 'til very late in the game, if at all, there's really not much story meat to tide you over for it. So, in brief, you gotta love the cast, and you'll follow them anywhere...even that bath-house in episode 5. (6?)
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elreicht
 Posts: 39 Location: Manila, Philippines |
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I'm sorry if I have to quote almost all of what you said but i completely agree with you. Hello guys, I love your site. This will be my second post. I love the way you guys use correct spelling and grammar when posting. This is a very dignified site and I'm honored to be a part of it. I love Eureka 7 and it's definitely on top of my list. Anime is really hard to come by in our country and most of the time we just miss out on new titles (if you have cable tv then that's a great advantage). But I have watched quite a lot of anime and I must say that nothing has moved me quite like Eureka 7 has. When I entered the thread, I read some of you guys discussing all of the technical details of the anime. I was a bit surprised because I thought this was a thread for fans of Eureka 7. Maybe Im just stupid so I can't quite catch up with all the technical talk, but if you begin to love the characters and the story, does it really matter? And if you're a fan of the story, would you really like the story to end? I know an ending is necessary but I really want to know what happens next. For the rest of their lives. But that's just me you know. Sometimes I wish these stories could exist in another universe. I love some anime so much that I wish for them to be real and not just some writer's creation but a glimpse of another universe or reality. I love the characters. I love the story. I wish it could be longer. I wish there's another installment for it. I wish it was true and that everything happened in another universe. Sigh. I hope no one takes offense. I'm just a noob. 
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Actually, yes, it does - at least for some of us, anyway. Case in point: Claymore is maybe my favorite series of the past couple of years; loved it so much I made a Website devoted to it, and I do not normally do that. I would never acknowledge it as one of the Top 10 (or even Top 20) best series I've ever seen, though, because I also recognize that it has flaws, and not very subtle ones at that. But hey, if this one works for you, then that's cool, too. There's certainly far worse series out there that I've seen people rate as the best they've ever seen. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Well, I know that in my case at least I want to see the story end. If it starts to drag on it just gets to be too much and a bit outside of the realm of belief, even for an anime. I like to see a good story and get plenty of time with the characters, but I like to see the story reach a proper conclusion and to see how it all pans out in the end. For me the conclusion is actually one of the most important parts of the series and is often where I often have complaints. I can deal with the sad or bittersweet endings, it's the ones that don't get a proper conclusion that annoy me. A series has got to end eventually, and an important part to writing it is knowing when to end the series. You stretch it on too long and it just gets to be too much, and if you end it too quickly you don't provide enough time for the story and characters to develop properly. So yeah, at least in my case I want to see the series end if I'm a fan of the story. The key is that I want to see it end right and at the right time. We'll see how E7 holds up in that regard as I'm following the DVD releases, and haven't seen the final four episodes yet. |
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Vuwazy
Posts: 208 |
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Does it depend on how you see it working? If I want to do what you're saying then I will also have to do the same thing with using the rating masterpiece.
LOL. I laugh when Holland gets pissed and abuses Renton. It looks sad and funny at the same time. Someone has stepped in one time. In one episode spoiler[when Holland kicked Renton (I think), Talho slapped Holland afterwards for keeping up at it]. Now in regards to which I prefer between Eureka 7 and TTGL, I'll say Eureka 7. I just felt the character in E7 more. I also will go out on a limb and say that 2007 was a disappointing year in terms of the shows that came out. Disappointing compared to the previous year of 06. With some of the top titles to watch like Gurren Lagann, Claymore, Darker Than Black, Lucky Star, and a few others, I didn't find any of those to be overly thrilling. TTGL is one of them. I like Eureka Seven. Don't know where to start. Let me have some moment and I'll be back on it. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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elreicht
Posts: 39 Location: Manila, Philippines |
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Whew I thought I was gonna get creamed for being such a noob. I guess I understand why a good ending is important now. But I just hope they continue the story with OVAs. I just wanna know what happens next.
By the way what's up with Eureka being able to spoiler[ speak with machines ]? Does this ability apply to spoiler[ all machines or just LFOs]? |
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bahamut623
 Posts: 1463 |
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I think it only applies to spoiler[LFO's because underneath all the metal they're Coralians. Maybe it was just with Nirvash, I'm not sure if she ever "spoke" with any others] |
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elreicht
Posts: 39 Location: Manila, Philippines |
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I believe I saw an episode where she spoiler[ used the ability with an LFO component. Not exactly an LFO unit. But what you said really makes sense.] I guess I'll have to watch that episode again. More reasons to watch it over again. 
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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The only machine she truly ever speaks to is the Nirvash. She does show an attachment to machines, but that was explained in a later episode as the fact the machines have the imprint of the Coralian and so she feels closer to machines than humans, but doesn't necessarily speak to them. Or something like that, I'll have to find and rewatch the specific episode to recall the explanation. It does make sense though since the Compac Drives are associated with the Trapar and Coralians and are used to allow humans to power and use most machines.
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Jambe
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I've lurked for a while. This thread has been interesting. One thing I'll say right out front is that I'm not a PC (politically correct) writer. I don't say "I think this" or "I feel that" — I just come out and say "this was horrible" or "blue is my favorite color." My bluntness should not be perceived as an insult. I simply don't waste my time faking compassion on forums.
At first I wasn't impressed with Eureka Seven. As things progressed into and beyond the 30th episode or so, however, I began to reflect back on what had been alluded to or explored earlier in the series. spoiler[The bit where Dominic found out about the "Anemone creation process" for example.] I wouldn't have cared about that so much had I not already become invested in Anemone. It's not that I was particularly caught up in her struggle or interested in her little flings, though. I cared about Anemone because of something far more shallow — because I find crazy women attractive, and Anemone defined crazy during most of the series. My initial reaction was, "Wow, that's one crazy gal, she's kind of interesting." What amazed me was that the creative staff was able to gradually evolve that viewpoint into something like, "Yeah, Dominic + Anemone really works well. I hope things pan out between those two." That smacks of good storytelling. Anemone may not have had enough screen time early on to snag the attention of those less appreciative of long-form anime, but that doesn't equate to her being poorly designed. She managed to pull me into the story and hold me there even when the rest of what was going on was less than enjoyable (Dominic was meh for a long time). The same was true, more or less, of Eureka. She's a cutie with a personality that begs for attention. If one cared about her one must've also cared, if only tangentially, about Renton & his lot (Renton was not all that interesting early on, either). All in all, Eureka Seven is a generic "growing up kiddies" tale set in a post-apocalyptic mecha-inhabited future. Such stories are a dime a dozen. What set E7 apart was that the various characters end up meshing quite well and the viewer can become attached to them. I teared up during several points because, as the various sub-plots were congealing, I was becoming ever-more attached to the three couples central to the entire program. The way Bones compared and contrasted the couples throughout the narrative only made it more interesting & compelling. There were well-delineated stereotypes: dependent + devoted in Anemone & Dominic, midlife crisis + stabilizing factor in Holland & Talho and pubescent critter + love interest in Renton & Eureka. There are definitely more stereotypes & dynamics to be noted, I was just making a point. This would be a rare occasion where I could use the word "trichotomy." Trichotomy!
Another thing that set E7 apart was the dead silence. There were long spans where perhaps only a few choice words were uttered and the visuals told all of the story. Those moments were easily some of the most powerful of the entire show. Excellent creative direction is required to suck people into strictly visual storytelling. Bones' animation prowess no doubt aided in captivating me — what with the "ooh, pretty mech battles & trapar surfing" nonsense and all — but beyond the beautiful imagery was a story that I cared about. Were that story not there the anime might as well have been XiaoXiao Stick-Man Wars Fifty-Five. Echoing what some of you have already said, I too feel a well-designed conclusion makes a story worthwhile. I hate to bring up noob examples, but look at Watanabe's work! The last two Bebop and Champloo episodes were fabulous, and they closed their respective series completely. While they may have tied things up, though, they left the urge to know more. I wanted to know more because I had been so bloody caught up in the existences of the characters. I wanted to know about their lives, their struggles, their castaway romances, what food they ate on a rainy Sunday when they were depressed and lonely, etc — all manner of sundry nonsense which I normally wouldn't give a poo about. The fact that the stories were closed adequately and I still wanted more indicates that the creators (Watanabe & the staff) were a damned good bunch of storytellers. It's one thing to tell a story that ends and is forgettable. It's another thing entirely to tell a story that the reader will remember weeks, months or years later. A random thought — spoiler[isn't it a pity that Dewey is only shown with his hair down for a few short moments and then he dies? Ugh!] Another random thought here — I happen to be a sucker for these giddy feel-good tracks set in anime. Of note in E7 was "Sakura" by Nirgilis (opener on 40-49, I believe). The combination Amazing Grace + bits of "Sayonara Fall In Love" are, strangely enough, beautiful. |
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elreicht
Posts: 39 Location: Manila, Philippines |
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Eureka 7 soundtracks are the best! Sakura, Days, Shounen Heart, Tips Taps Tips, Taiyou no Mannaka he (did i spell 'em right?). I love those songs.
But of course I love the OPTheme for Aquarion (Sousei no Aquarion) by AKINO as well.
I always feel like jumping into my mech(make-believe made from empty carton boxes) whenever I hear those songs. <sigh> |
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