×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
INTEREST: Mushoku Tensei Author Comments on Series' Depiction of Slavery


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4621
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 12:17 pm Reply with quote
minamikaze wrote:

There's the example of the people who created "educational videos" that were recently approved for use in grade school classes (K-6) in Florida. Referenced Article
More information

Oh trust me, I'm well aware of the disgusting things currently going on in Florida and elsewhere. I just figured that maybe seeing the institution being played out in the flesh right in front of someone might produce a far more visceral response than an abstract account in a history textbook would. (Or less charitably, that a protagonist in Japan might not be as subject to my own country's very special brand of stupid.) As you say, that's probably being hopelessly naive.

Gamen wrote:

Rudy had been a human piece of garbage for about 20 or so years before being squashed like an overripe tomato, then went through socialization again on a different world.... and this is the kicker, got dumped in a wasteland halfway across the world and had to make his way back home with Eris and Ruijerd through multiple different cultures, explicitly serving as the peacemaker of the group. That Rudy would be able to tolerate even extreme cultural differences from a society he was barely a part of thirty-plus years ago is I think well justified.

Granted, it might also be just a coincidence, and "buy a slave" was just another trope on the checklist to mark off. I'm only saying that it fits, and is not out of character for him. I also can't think of anything later that takes advantage of this being identified as part of his character now. As far as I can remember, it's gratuitous.

I guess that just further begs my question: why in God's name would I want to watch a series about a complete piece of shit who gets plopped into a new world that allows him to keep being a piece of shit without anyone ever calling him on his shit? There are far more pleasant pursuits I could be doing instead, like getting a root canal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2-2Distracted



Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:28 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
2-2Distracted wrote:
If he simply liked it, he wouldn't try to constant make excuses for why he likes it. It gives off the impression that he's being facetious when he's trying to tell a serious story.

He gave a description of Rudy's train of thought and why he acted as he did. I don't see that as an excuse.


He also gave a description of how much of a "pervert" Rudy currently is & will continue to be, completely missing the point of the problem, which is that it's not that he's a pervert it's that he's a child predator. Him needing to do so in a tweet instead of doing so in his storytelling is him making an excuse. It's no different from an author's note after they've finished a chapter in a badly written fanfic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2-2Distracted



Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:33 pm Reply with quote
Gamen wrote:
2-2Distracted wrote:
That's the thing tho isn't? Rudeus actual Has grown to respect the bodily autonomy of women, just look at the sex scene at the end season 1- wherein he's gone from seeing Eris as an object to get him off to recognizing where her head is at, sympathizing with her emotions and overall actually Not trying sleep with her because of how depressed she actually is.


I'd say the lesson he learned there was that if a girl that can kick his ass dresses in lingerie and comes to his bed, he should let her take the initiative because he's not getting laid otherwise. And he learned that lesson then, in episode 8, and yet continued to peep/grope/etc. and generally be a sex pest to her. I mean, he wouldn't exactly be unusual for a molester to be rationalizing his actions as just "harmless" touching...

Arguably it's the same as a male lead copping a feel when he trips in a lucky sukebe event, or one girl feeling up another's boobs when they're in the bath together, just without the transparent (and increasingly futile) framing to make it less creepy...


Point is, no, I don't think he learned the lesson you think he did.


That just adds to the problem of him being inconsistently written then since so far he doesn't believe in the whole "might makes right" thing but will showcase otherwise if it helps with his ED. Like, great, he didn't learn a lesson that I thought he did but he also didn't in another area where it was clear he did.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
allnightclerk



Joined: 24 Sep 2022
Posts: 43
Location: Osaka, Japan
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 3:03 pm Reply with quote
2-2Distracted wrote:
Shield Hero was practically roasted week after week when it was airing because fans of the work, and the work itself, tried & failed to argue with nonsensical in-universe reasons for why things work the way they do, ESPECIALLY when it came to how tried it to handwave why it was okay for the main character to have slaves in his party.

Mushoku Tensei isn't unique in this & honestly speaking it deserves to have have this happen to it as well, especially when the author won't shut up about his poor writing choices on Twitter.


What is the "this" that is happening to it, exactly? Do you think complaining on an internet forum is doing some kind of damage to the show or something? I hope that's not what's going on here. Do you not realize how popular those two series are in particular?

The "Thermian Argument" was just something a YouTube made up to complain about anime like Goblin Slayer having content he didn't like in it. It's not an actual thing. It's completely meaningless. And frankly, the idea that writers should be mocked or made fun of for thinking about world building and consistency seems really weird. But I realize it's mostly done so detractors can have their way and force creators to do what they want since that's the only argument a lot of people can put forward on why a creator should listen to them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeverConvex
Subscriber



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2341
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 3:22 pm Reply with quote
allnightclerk wrote:
the idea that writers should be mocked or made fun of for thinking about world building and consistency seems really weird


This is not an idea anyone has expressed. Literally no one. Nothing even remotely resembling this has ever been conveyed. You could, in fact, pore over this entire thread, emphasizing even the least coherent posts, and you would find nothing like it. It is amazing to me that you somehow still took it away as your summary of that conversation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2-2Distracted



Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:55 pm Reply with quote
allnightclerk wrote:
2-2Distracted wrote:
Shield Hero was practically roasted week after week when it was airing because fans of the work, and the work itself, tried & failed to argue with nonsensical in-universe reasons for why things work the way they do, ESPECIALLY when it came to how tried it to handwave why it was okay for the main character to have slaves in his party.

Mushoku Tensei isn't unique in this & honestly speaking it deserves to have have this happen to it as well, especially when the author won't shut up about his poor writing choices on Twitter.


What is the "this" that is happening to it, exactly? Do you think complaining on an internet forum is doing some kind of damage to the show or something? I hope that's not what's going on here. Do you not realize how popular those two series are in particular?

The "Thermian Argument" was just something a YouTube made up to complain about anime like Goblin Slayer having content he didn't like in it. It's not an actual thing. It's completely meaningless. And frankly, the idea that writers should be mocked or made fun of for thinking about world building and consistency seems really weird. But I realize it's mostly done so detractors can have their way and force creators to do what they want since that's the only argument a lot of people can put forward on why a creator should listen to them.


Pointing out why your in-universe explanations are stupid =/= mocking you for writing them, I'm not even sure how you got to that conclusion, it's just to add further why your writing isn't very good.

The Thermian Argument isn't even something new but it IS indeed a thing, since I literally pointed out that it's just a variation of the "Watsonian vs Doylist" argument, something so common even the late Terry Pratchett knew about it when he was in the middle of his Discworld novels. Hell, it's something even Tolkien knew about and got tired of dealing with whenever someone would ask why about the Eagles in LOTR.

And if you really think complaining is only going on in internet forums like this one, you need to check out more places that aren't internet forums. Rifujin isn't a stranger to having Mushoku Tensei be criticized, he faced a lot of that when he was still writing the Web Novel and posting it on websites, it's part of the reason he won't shut his mouth on Twitter for instance. Neither is the author of Shield Hero, and ironically enough a fair bit of that helped improve their writing in spite of how popular both of their respective work were getting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4621
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:30 pm Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:

This is not an idea anyone has expressed. Literally no one. Nothing even remotely resembling this has ever been conveyed. You could, in fact, pore over this entire thread, emphasizing even the least coherent posts, and you would find nothing like it. It is amazing to me that you somehow still took it away as your summary of that conversation.

If anything, several of us have been repeatedly stating the opposite, that the author NOT thinking enough about characterization is the main issue. Nice to know we've all been screaming into the void, isn't it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2154
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:40 pm Reply with quote
2-2Distracted wrote:
Meanwhile you have writers like Yoko Taro and the creator of Redo of a Healer who just flat out said that they wrote their respective nonsensical situations because they simply wanted to, with the former explaining that the reason 2B/9S/A2/YorHa bots are dressed the way they are is because he liked it, and as for the latter the reason Redo is so trashy is because the author wanted to take all of his teenage edge-phase ideas and pour it all into a single work in order to basically get it all out of his system.


Or Uchikoshi, like I mentioned last week on page 19. I remember Caitlin Moore talked some last year about how his honesty, and Yoko Taro's, makes it more palatable than the Quiet thing, or other cases of "the internal logic of this world I constructed compelled me to, it wasn't me being weird at all". (I think Alice VLR's getup has a canon explanation of "it's because nobody would expect someone dressed like that to be what she really is", though. Which yeah, makes it dumber.)

Also, looking back at that post, I see the "Well, I still like it, and the author can do what he wants, so there" argument I mentioned is still being deployed!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FeelMyBlade



Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 142
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:24 am Reply with quote
Shay Guy wrote:
2-2Distracted wrote:
Meanwhile you have writers like Yoko Taro and the creator of Redo of a Healer who just flat out said that they wrote their respective nonsensical situations because they simply wanted to, with the former explaining that the reason 2B/9S/A2/YorHa bots are dressed the way they are is because he liked it, and as for the latter the reason Redo is so trashy is because the author wanted to take all of his teenage edge-phase ideas and pour it all into a single work in order to basically get it all out of his system.


Or Uchikoshi, like I mentioned last week on page 19. I remember Caitlin Moore talked some last year about how his honesty, and Yoko Taro's, makes it more palatable than the Quiet thing, or other cases of "the internal logic of this world I constructed compelled me to, it wasn't me being weird at all". (I think Alice VLR's getup has a canon explanation of "it's because nobody would expect someone dressed like that to be what she really is", though. Which yeah, makes it dumber.)


But people still complain about Redo of Healer, Yoko Taro, and all those other things. A creator being "honest" has never stopped people from attacking them or have people wanting stuff they don't like to just not exist. But to imply they're being dishonest by putting some kind of explanation for something and are only trying to cover up some kind of ulterior motive of theirs is a very bad faith reading. I didn't know people were still upset by Quiet almost 10 years later, but I guess some people still are? Kojima saying a woman breathing through her skin so she has to have it exposed doesn't seem like a big deal to me. The same reason Momo's hero outfit also shows a lot of skin since she needs to create her weapons from it. They both make perfect sense and it's such a simple, easy explanation that I can't see what's worth getting upset over. What I find most ironic is that out of all the Japanese games developers one could name, Kojima is probably given the most respect by his western peers and the industry. He's best buddies with so many western celebrities and industry journalists at this point. He has like a cult of worshippers and fans across the world. This characterization of him being some kind of social pariah or industry laughingstock for his innocuous explanation of Quiet makes no sense to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2-2Distracted



Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:39 am Reply with quote
FeelMyBlade wrote:
But people still complain about Redo of Healer, Yoko Taro, and all those other things. A creator being "honest" has never stopped people from attacking them or have people wanting stuff they don't like to just not exist.


And so...? I'd rather a creator be upfront about what they like and stick to their respective guns even in the face of these kinds of criticisms instead of trying to constantly come up with incredibly dumb explanations that don't make any sense. Yoko Taro saw all that criticism and literally doubled down by providing an alternative costume that showed even less clothes than before, his own method of giving critics the finger Laughing

FeelMyBlade wrote:
But to imply they're being dishonest by putting some kind of explanation for something and are only trying to cover up some kind of ulterior motive of theirs is a very bad faith reading.


Exactly where am I implying that? I said they're being Facetious, not that they're being Dishonest. Two very different things. A lot of the time these creators are trying to tell some really serious stories with a lot of weight and meaning to them, and it's incredibly difficult to take those stories seriously when you have characters or situations that utterly ruin the pace, theme and tone of the story being told. It's like trying to tell the story of Attack on Titan but for some reason every female is naked 90% of the time for no good reason other than fanservice, with Isayama responding every so often that "there's actually a very good explanation for why they're naked I swear".

FeelMyBlade wrote:
I didn't know people were still upset by Quiet almost 10 years later, but I guess some people still are? Kojima saying a woman breathing through her skin so she has to have it exposed doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


They're not, at least I don't think they are anyways, I was just providing an example of a stupid Watsonian explanation... Something even Konami took note of because they ended up giving her an alternative costume anyway, the XOF uniform.

FeelMyBlade wrote:
The same reason Momo's hero outfit also shows a lot of skin since she needs to create her weapons from it. They both make perfect sense and it's such a simple, easy explanation that I can't see what's worth getting upset over.


And yet there's still quite an uproar over costume being designed the way it was for the sake of fanservice, to the point where fans have literally drawn way better alternatives that would make a helluva lot more sense than what currently exists due to how little sense it currently makes. Oh yeah, and the creator of MHA openly admitted that he's a pervert and part of the reason he made Mineta Minoru is so he can have a character who's almost as perverted as he is/was & so that character can be promptly punished for their behavior.

FeelMyBlade wrote:
This characterization of him being some kind of social pariah or industry laughingstock for his innocuous explanation of Quiet makes no sense to me.


You are reaching farther than the last guy who replied to me, Monkey D. Luffy and Mr. Fantastic combined with this. Where the hell did I even imply that this was the case? Do I need to remind you that despite being so high in everyone & their mother's goodbooks, he still felt the need to write up an entire lore reason for Quite's nakedness as a response to the criticism he initially received ? In a Tweet thread he straight up said "But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds" in response to a random fan on Twitter re-release.

Also a much lesser point that doesn't at all apply to Kojima specifically, but there are a lot of people in the entertainment industry that have this level of prestige behind them that they don't deserve due to just how horrible they are as people, I'm sure I don't need to provide examples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
light turner



Joined: 13 Aug 2022
Posts: 135
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:40 am Reply with quote
2-2Distracted wrote:
The Thermian Argument isn't even something new but it IS indeed a thing, since I literally pointed out that it's just a variation of the "Watsonian vs Doylist" argument, something so common even the late Terry Pratchett knew about it when he was in the middle of his Discworld novels. Hell, it's something even Tolkien knew about and got tired of dealing with whenever someone would ask why about the Eagles in LOTR.


Tolkien is probably not the best example to use since the man was very meticulous on the worldbuilding to the point he created an entire written and spoken language and had tomes of notes and scriptures detailing the history of the world. If something happened in-universe then there was probably a reason for it. I'll always value in-universe explanations over an author just handwaving away something. Of course I'm assume we're being reasonable here and speaking in good faith and not talking about a case of people nitpicking obvious jokes and suspension of disbeliefs like how Batman can have a credit card under his Batman name being unrealistic and we're instead speaking strictly of plot holes and world building. Batman not liking guns because his parents were killed by one is a perfectly reasonable explanation I can get behind and appreciate more than a writer just saying it would be too easy if Batman could just shoot people to death and win every fight, even if both explanations are true. That's the difference between a good writer and a bad one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2-2Distracted



Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:16 am Reply with quote
light turner wrote:
2-2Distracted wrote:
The Thermian Argument isn't even something new but it IS indeed a thing, since I literally pointed out that it's just a variation of the "Watsonian vs Doylist" argument, something so common even the late Terry Pratchett knew about it when he was in the middle of his Discworld novels. Hell, it's something even Tolkien knew about and got tired of dealing with whenever someone would ask why about the Eagles in LOTR.


Tolkien is probably not the best example to use since the man was very meticulous on the worldbuilding to the point he created an entire written and spoken language and had tomes of notes and scriptures detailing the history of the world. If something happened in-universe then there was probably a reason for it. I'll always value in-universe explanations over an author just handwaving away something. Of course I'm assume we're being reasonable here and speaking in good faith and not talking about a case of people nitpicking obvious jokes and suspension of disbeliefs like how Batman can have a credit card under his Batman name being unrealistic and we're instead speaking strictly of plot holes and world building. Batman not liking guns because his parents were killed by one is a perfectly reasonable explanation I can get behind and appreciate more than a writer just saying it would be too easy if Batman could just shoot people to death and win every fight, even if both explanations are true. That's the difference between a good writer and a bad one.


I agree with you but that of course gets into the thick of things then. Tolkien was indeed incredibly meticulous but at the same time there is literally audio file of him telling his readers to shut the hell up about the eagles Laughing due to how many people don't buy the explanation(s) that has been showcased throughout the entire trilogy and due to how their arrival just sticks out like a sore thumb. It's nigh perfect story with a questionable ending. Bring it up now in the Fandom and watch the fireworks go off.

And as for Batman's thing about guns... Remember when Batman openly used guns and even killed people in the 1st couple of issues of Detective Comics? Yes that basically got retconned, along with the costume he wore prior to his current iconic one, but my point is there are some in-universe explanations that really don't hold up (this one pretty much does tho). Like yeah fine, Batman won't kill Joker with a gun, and he won't kill in general, but at some point this being the reason Joker is not dead (along with the various other reasons) are going to drag down the universe itself the more serious it gets.

No one is going to bat (heh) an eye at Adam West Era Batman - with his Bat-shark-repellant, or Tim Burton Era Batman carrying a Bat-credit-card - being ridiculous and not killing anyone or using a gun, because the universe never asked the audience take this stuff seriously, but the more serious you make your character & universe they live in the more you run the risk of people taking them less seriously when they come across the mountain of inconsistencies you're trying to get them to ignore.

Isekai stories like Mushoku Tensei and Shield Hero are in a similar situation where the more they expect their audience to sympathize the characters they less they're likely to because of how things play out in favor of said characters. Both Naofumi and Rudeus lives sucked, one through no fault of his own and the other almost entirely the fault of his own, but the way in which their respective stories try to assist them in their growth and development is just terribly written to say the least.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4621
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:40 pm Reply with quote
2-2Distracted wrote:

I agree with you but that of course gets into the thick of things then. Tolkien was indeed incredibly meticulous but at the same time there is literally audio file of him telling his readers to shut the hell up about the eagles Laughing due to how many people don't buy the explanation(s) that has been showcased throughout the entire trilogy and due to how their arrival just sticks out like a sore thumb. It's nigh perfect story with a questionable ending. Bring it up now in the Fandom and watch the fireworks go off.

At the risk of driving this thread too off-topic, the "Tolkien audio" you're citing is fake, a joke done by someone impersonating Tolkien's voice. Tolkien was the type to write a lengthy letter to someone addressing their questions about his writing, not give a short quip and leave it at that. Also, the "Eagle question" being referred to is the age-old chestnut "Why didn't they simply fly into Mordor?", not the times when the Eagles were actually used. (Also there's no reason for "fireworks" about those instances, as there are very clear thematic reasons for how and why they're used, but that would be way too off-topic so I won't bore the class with details.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2-2Distracted



Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 5:23 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
2-2Distracted wrote:

I agree with you but that of course gets into the thick of things then. Tolkien was indeed incredibly meticulous but at the same time there is literally audio file of him telling his readers to shut the hell up about the eagles Laughing due to how many people don't buy the explanation(s) that has been showcased throughout the entire trilogy and due to how their arrival just sticks out like a sore thumb. It's nigh perfect story with a questionable ending. Bring it up now in the Fandom and watch the fireworks go off.

At the risk of driving this thread too off-topic, the "Tolkien audio" you're citing is fake, a joke done by someone impersonating Tolkien's voice. Tolkien was the type to write a lengthy letter to someone addressing their questions about his writing, not give a short quip and leave it at that. Also, the "Eagle question" being referred to is the age-old chestnut "Why didn't they simply fly into Mordor?", not the times when the Eagles were actually used. (Also there's no reason for "fireworks" about those instances, as there are very clear thematic reasons for how and why they're used, but that would be way too off-topic so I won't bore the class with details.)


Did some digging and yeah you're absolutely right Laughing guess I got duped
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2154
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 5:51 pm Reply with quote
FeelMyBlade wrote:
I didn't know people were still upset by Quiet almost 10 years later, but I guess some people still are?

[…]

This characterization of him being some kind of social pariah or industry laughingstock for his innocuous explanation of Quiet makes no sense to me.


I've never played MGS and didn't pay much attention to the whole Quiet kerfuffle, but I never got the sense he'd become a "pariah". Just that a lot of people were saying "Dude, that is dumb as shit."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 22 of 23

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group