Forum - View topicWhat male-oriented fanservice SHOULD learn from Free.
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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Oh girl, I KNOW you're not all the same! I'm not trying to say that you are! Heck I can be a bit of one myself...HisokaxTsuzuki from Yami No Matsuei is my yaoi OTP. 
Haha I am and it's so much fun. :> |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6878 Location: Kazune City |
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Note: off-topic feminism definition discussion removed.
I guess Tyrenol isn't around anymore, but I'll take up his banner for a moment: a good percentage of straight-male-oriented fanservice shows DO feature assault and victimization, but of males! I'm willing to put up with that abuse in good fun as part and parcel of the genre, but anyone pretending that the harem/fanservice genre is all about male characters abusing female characters is delusional. Though I will agree that the haters have a point on the "No I'M going to cook for him!" stuff. There's no shortage of female sexual agency in those shows, either. Most potential sexual situations get defused by the guy's reluctance or rejection of her sexual advances, if not by some other random incident. (cf. Momo on numerous occasions in To-Love Ru, Princess Henrietta in Familiar of Zero, Yuuko in Dusk Maiden X Amnesia, Kaede in Shuffle!, Rin in Kodomo no JIkan, Mitsuki in Rumbling Hearts, Otome in School Days, Asuka and Misato in NGE, Ako and Riko in Kiss X Sis, Ren in DearS, etc.)
While I have not gotten around to Free! yet, I don't see KyoAni going this same direction with its fanservice imagery of females. Despite numerous opportunities, they've always shied away from anything racier than non-extreme swimsuit shots. (And I guess that one Nayuki bra scene in Kanon.) I don't recall any pantyshots in K-On!, any changing-room scenes in Clannad, or any nude delusion transformations in Chuunibyou. Even the infamous FMP? Fumoffu hot springs episode was rife with convenient concealment. Though I must say I'd prefer it if more shows executed "situational fanservice" -- combing the visuals with the characters' actions, emotions, and dialogue. And speaking of KyoAni, the "Kyou and Tomoya locked in storage room" scene in Clannad does an excellent job with that. |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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Both female and male-oriented fanservice shows have their fair share of objectification and exploitation. However, while most male fanservice shows tend to just make me roll my eyes (i.e. Qwaser, Ikkitousen, We Without Wings), it tends to be certain female fanservice that creeps me out the most.
Having a bunch of females get their panties in a twist over fixing some loser wimp a meal or seeing a guy face smoosh himself into a pair of boobs for the nth time are stupid and eyeroll worthy, but nothing I get bothered about. Oh, one of those shows, okay whatever. (Not that there aren't male-oriented fanservice shows that don't edge into the creep zone). No, it's shoujo manga like Black Bird that really get me to raise my eyebrows. The male that must always dominate, humiliate, and subjugate the female because he loves her. Or scenes like in another shoujo manga, Red River, where each guy wants to bone the MC female and isn't beneath just throwing her down and having his way with her. Or, as TitanXL mentioned, doujinshi written by fujoshi that feature a lot of dom/sub, dubcon, and noncon BL material. And while the Western fandom doesn't tend to have as extensive history with doujinshi, I have read plenty of fanfics that edge into this territory (I tend to avoid the ones that outright go there).
Me too. There is definitely the dark potential there for fans to exploit into some disturbing territory (that I've read on occasion in a morbid humor), but I tend to prefer the healing type of stories where they each help each other to move beyond all of the sadness and pain in their lives. |
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Vaisaga
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In the first place, the harem based fanservice shows are the wrong type to compare Free! to. If Kou was the main character and all the guys were after her, then yeah, that comparison is valid. I'll admit I haven't see many 'reverse harem' shows so I can't comment on how those are different from male aimed harem shows.
It's more apt to compare Free! to shows like K-ON and Lucky Star, where the cast is mostly a single gender, it's about them goofing around, and fans thrive on the homosexual subtext. Funnily enough, one of the main differences between Free and those shows is that Free shows a lot more skin. K-ON and Lucky Star might have the occasional trip to the beach or bath scene but that's about it. Free is way more heavy on the fanservice, but no one's really bothered by it because only a woman's chest is obscene. Or something stupid like that. As I've said before, what stands out to me about Free! is Kou. In male aimed shows I've mentioned above, there is not a single important male character. Lucky Star has Minoru, but he barely has a role in the main story. With K-ON, the only named male character is Ritsu's brother. While I do like having more female characters than male, I also want my gender to be fairly represented. Why can't the Lucky Star or K-ON girls have a male friend they hang out with frequently? He doesn't need to be a romantic interest or anything but I appreciate some male presence. And I mean a somewhat substantial presence. I don't want it to be like Railgun where I keep wondering when Touma is going to show up again. Off the top of my head the only male aimed title that gets kinda close is Saki. But even then Kyoutarou is largely irrelevant and he always gets treated as an idiot or an errand boy. At least he gets ship teases with Yuuki. Compare this to Kou. Kou is shown to be quite competent in her managerial duties and is very involved with the guys. When they have a meeting at Haru's house, she's there. When they go shopping, she goes with them. She's not just "that chick that shows up occasionally", but very much a part of the gang (even if she's not in the opening or ending). Looks like she's also being set up as the one to help bridge Haru and Rin's strained relationship. And this is all without her having sexual tension with any of them. So yeah, that is what I'd like other fanservice shows to learn from Free! You can put the spotlight on one gender without disregarding the other. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Because women can self-insert into Kou and see themselves surrounded by several hot guys. Not saying that all female viewers do so, but that's a large reason why she is there. As you said, Free thrives on homosexual subtext so there being any sort of sexual tension or not is pretty much irrelevant.
Cute girls doing cute things shows don't need a male self-insert. I don't know why, but they do not. Male self-inserts are for harems. For one that has a guy more prominent than Saki though, I recommend Taisho Baseball Girls as it is one of the few cute girls doing cute things shows that actually attempts to also foster some heterosexual relationships along with the standard yuri teasing fare. Another one with a much more prominent male character (even the main character) that is more debatable is GJ-bu. A lot of people would claim it's a harem, and I can't blame them. It certainly does look like one. For me though, it was a cute girls doing cute things show that just happened to have a male main character. So perhaps you can also check that out. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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GJ-bu is very much a harem since Kyoro was the center of everything.
While I definitely see Kou as the audience's mouthpiece, I dunno how well she works as a self insert. She admires their bodies but she's shown no signs of being a yaoi fan. And yeah, they don't need male self inserts, but I wasn't talking about a male self insert. Just a male period. It makes no sense that these girls go through life without meeting a single guy. |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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When they go to an all-girls school, then yes, that is actually very believable.
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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Oh shit, it's almost like people have fetishes and can write whatever porn they want! Also, dom/sub is skeevish in your eyes? How much of a ridiculous prude are you? |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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@Vaisaga: I think the GJ-bu chatter hits the nail on the head as to why cute girls doing cute things shows almost always lack important males: they're essentially harem shows with the lead removed. Of course they don't have any other important guys.
@Chagen46: Are you trying to deny that BL seems to go into the more disturbing things with greater frequency? Because that's certainly relevant to the discussion, which your first sentence does nothing to promote(even if I heartedly agree with it). |
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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Well, clearly people like rapey and dubconish BL, so more power to them I guess. I don't know WHY BL tends to skew more towards there but clearly there's an audience.
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Polycell
Posts: 4623 |
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Quick, off-the-cuff theory: the misogynistic environment supposedly reinforced by male-oriented fanservice(of whatever extremity you think makes it degrading to women) creates a base desire in women to "get revenge" on the male sex, which they satisfy by having them vicariously raped in their manga(actually raping a man being far too much of a production for most women).
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Yeah, so I give more leeway to K-ON, but they never run into one when they go out on the town? How about a teacher or a family friend? There are ways to do it. |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Other than the music shop employee and convenience store employee and the many different males they interact with in the movie? Not that I can recall. A male teacher at an all-girls school is always a pretty tough sale in my opinion. Not the best idea.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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There are male teachers at the K-ON high school.
At any rate, that is just what I'd like other shows to learn from Free. Kou manages to be a prominent character while at the same time not detracting from any of the males. If a show with a largely female cast had a similar male character, that'd be cool. |
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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*sigh* now we're blaming male-targeted shows for females who enjoy hardcore yaoi....because that just couldn't be natural, we have to find someone to blame for that? revenge fantaies are all about taking power back from someone who stole it from you. Exactly how is it empowering for a woman to watch one guy get violated by another guy? |
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