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SHD
Joined: 05 Apr 2015
Posts: 1752
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 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:10 am
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| Cardcaptor Takato wrote: | | I think the issue with the live action Cowboy Bebop isn't if they were aiming for a casual audience or the hardcore fans of the original but they didn't really seem to know who they were aiming for where on the one hand the plot and characters diverged from the original in pretty significant ways but they also kept doing 1:1 comparisons with the anime in all their marketing and bring in Yoko Kanno for the score and hiring the original cast for the Japanese dub. The live action Bebop seemed to be a case where they're trying to please everyone but end up pleasing no one by trying to want to do original spin on things but also trying to cater the fans of the original. And also the script was just bad. |
I agree. Honestly, even as someone who loves the anime I didn't expect or want the live action show to be a 1:1 copy. I didn't care about Cho being "too old", I thought (still think) that the kerfluffle over Faye's outfit was ridiculous, I was cautiously looking forward to what they do with expanding Vicious' and Julia's story... Also, I didn't care about them bringing back Kanno, I didn't care about bringing back the original cast (especially as they don't really sound like they did in the anime, anyway, and many characters are just too different for the original seiyuu to be a good fit anyway), and so on. Generally, I didn't care about all the "this is totally going to be one for the fans of the anime" attitude, however, it made me optimistic that this time it was going to work out because they were clearly so intent on being faithful to the original's spirit.
Aaaand they weren't. They simply didn't understand what made the anime good, it's like, the only takeaway they had from it were "bounty hunters" and "stylish action" and "OMG JAAAZZZZ" - and that's what they were trying to sell as being "really faithful" to the anime, when there should have been more to that. Whoever came up with the overall thematic and stylistic concept, whoever wrote and supervised the scripts, had no idea about what Cowboy Bebop and its characters were supposedly "about". So they got the "faithful" part wrong, and as a stand-alone, it was just a painfully low-end-mediocre Whedon-knockoff complete with obnoxious and badly written dialogue with endless quips and one-liners, that treated its audience like they were too stupid to understand what was happening unless someone was constantly narrating it to them. (Case in point, episode 1: "Hmm, I don't think the anime makes it very clear just what exactly happened to Katarina. Let's show her ship getting shot into pieces and then we show her dead body too, just to be sure people understand!")
It kind of reminded me of the old(?) trend in American anime dubs where they "snazzed up" the original dialogue with quips and swearing and "creative translation", and had characters talking non-stop, even when there was silence in the original - trying to create a more "hip" and "cool" version of the show for audiences who they thought would appreciate this style better. For me it didn't work at all.
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FeelMyBlade
Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 142
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 6:10 pm
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| BadNewsBlues wrote: | | People who ask for an adaptation to be 1:1 faithful to the source material tend to only do this for validation and wanting any new fans to get the same enjoyment of the material that they got out of the source even when some of that material is legitimately no good or simply wouldn’t work in the adaptation. |
I find these kinds of comment strange because anime is very often 1:1 faithful to their source material, or at least as close as you can realistically get. It's only when it comes to American adaptions that suddenly an accurate adaption is seen as unrealistic and the excuses come out over things like casting, set design, wardrobe changes, and a lot of other issues.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2344
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:02 pm
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I don't mind departures from the source material, but the departures here weren't small, and the writing/direction wasn't competent enough to pull off changes as big as they wanted to make. Sticking close to the source material would've been a very safe bet for a property like Bebop -- less so for something like One Piece, unless there's a massive CGI budget, but Bebop obviously lends itself very well to live action.
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Rob49152
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
Posts: 118
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:28 am
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The ONLY live action American Cowboy Bebop "like" show I enjoyed was Firefly. And that's because it was different and not Cowboy Bebop.
You simply can not duplicate something loved by fans, but change it and make it new without people being disappointed. Unless you are very skilled and aware of the pitfalls. You need to be aware that just because you like something doesn't mean the fans will think it's not stupid.
For example The Mandalorian. It was a totally new take on the Star Wars story. People loved it. Then there's The Book of Boba Fett. People already had ideas of who the character was and they didn't follow through. Fans hated it. Fan expected 'Most feared Bounty Hunter' who would shoot first without questioning it... Even the Mandalorian was more like that then the actual Boba Fett character... but I digress.
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Cardcaptor Takato
Joined: 27 Jan 2018
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:49 am
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| FeelMyBlade wrote: | |
I find these kinds of comment strange because anime is very often 1:1 faithful to their source material, or at least as close as you can realistically get. It's only when it comes to American adaptions that suddenly an accurate adaption is seen as unrealistic and the excuses come out over things like casting, set design, wardrobe changes, and a lot of other issues. |
Because anime and live action are entirely different mediums with different sets of realistic expectations. Also there's been plenty of loose anime adaptations over the years like the original Sailor Moon, FMA 03, and the original Shaman King. Even with faithful adaptations like MHA you have the anime making some minor changes to the manga to streamline the plot for a 24 minute episode which fans still pitch a fit about even if it's fairly minor changes.
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trilaan
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 1060
Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:43 am
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It was a fun series and pretty well-made adaptation(speaking as a fan of the anime) and I'm sad there's not likely to be any more. The show's biggest drawback for myself and those I watched or talked about it with was Vicious and Julia not having a very compelling story and too much screen time. As for the main trio my enjoyment of their performances is Jet, Faye, Spike. All three had really good chemistry. I loved the editing, especially in the Londes episode with it's excellent scene transitions. I was pleased. It failed but people(in any country) looking to make future live-action adaptations should take notes.
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Greed1914
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 4478
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:19 am
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| Cardcaptor Takato wrote: | | I think the issue with the live action Cowboy Bebop isn't if they were aiming for a casual audience or the hardcore fans of the original but they didn't really seem to know who they were aiming for where on the one hand the plot and characters diverged from the original in pretty significant ways but they also kept doing 1:1 comparisons with the anime in all their marketing and bring in Yoko Kanno for the score and hiring the original cast for the Japanese dub. The live action Bebop seemed to be a case where they're trying to please everyone but end up pleasing no one by trying to want to do original spin on things but also trying to cater the fans of the original. And also the script was just bad. |
Yeah, i thought the same thing during the lead up to it. There was such a mix of it being "true to the anime" and "doing its own thing" in the marketing and interviews that the sense I got was that it wouldn't commit to either and probably wouldn't do either that well.
Personally, I had hoped that they would take advantage of the episodic format of the anime and have the Bebop crew doing new stuff that we didn't see, and avoid getting too bogged down in adapting things directly. Doing it that way would mean that characters like Julius and Vicious could have been left out entirely, and not be missed.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:20 am
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| Greed1914 wrote: | | Personally, I had hoped that they would take advantage of the episodic format of the anime and have the Bebop crew doing new stuff that we didn't see, and avoid getting too bogged down in adapting things directly. Doing it that way would mean that characters like Julius and Vicious could have been left out entirely, and not be missed. |
That's a pretty neat idea. I'd still be pretty tremulous that they wouldn't have the skill to pull it off, but that would have been a lot more interesting to me, even if inept, than the large attempted changes to the canon storyline.
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SHD
Joined: 05 Apr 2015
Posts: 1752
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:39 am
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I don't think the problem was giving Vicious and Julia a bigger role. I think that part of the original Bebop story was one of the more interesting aspects of the show, yes, it's just my opinion, you don't have to agree, I'm tired of explaining why I like it.
Anyway, I don't think the problem was the idea of expanding on that aspect. I think the problem was how they went about doing it. It could've been really good and interesting, had they just went with what we had in the anime and expanded on that. But no, they decided to cook up something that was badly written to begin with, made no sense for any of the characters involved (at least not the characters they were supposed to be, what with the "omg we're going to be SO TRUE to the original's spirit!") and then badly directed and badly integrated into the rest of the show.
But of course this was just one thing that went terribly wrong with the Netflix show.
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FeelMyBlade
Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 142
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:37 pm
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| Cardcaptor Takato wrote: | | Because anime and live action are entirely different mediums with different sets of realistic expectations. Also there's been plenty of loose anime adaptations over the years like the original Sailor Moon, FMA 03, and the original Shaman King. Even with faithful adaptations like MHA you have the anime making some minor changes to the manga to streamline the plot for a 24 minute episode which fans still pitch a fit about even if it's fairly minor changes. |
None of those adaptions do things drastic like age up a character 25 years (Spike) or arbitrarily whitewash their race (Faye, Jet). I don't see how that's considered unrealistic expectations to keep Asian characters Asian, or a character in their mid-20s in their mid 20s.
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Cardcaptor Takato
Joined: 27 Jan 2018
Posts: 4918
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:26 pm
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| FeelMyBlade wrote: | |
None of those adaptions do things drastic like age up a character 25 years (Spike) or arbitrarily whitewash their race (Faye, Jet). I don't see how that's considered unrealistic expectations to keep Asian characters Asian, or a character in their mid-20s in their mid 20s. |
First, calling making Jet black "whitewashing" feels gross and also the Bebop anime as a whole was intended by Watanabe to have a diverse cast and the live action reboot had his involvement. Second we just had the live action FMA movie in Japan make all the Ishvallans played by Japanese actors even though they're all inspired by middle Eastern cultures which is now getting two sequels. Also the Sailor Moon anime is known for aging up Tuxedo Mask's character to being in college when he was in high school in the manga. Yes there should be more authentic casting in these live action reboots and more Asian actors in these roles but can we stop blaming it on black actors? Also interesting people are now complaining about Jet being made black in the reboot after complaining about how Spike shouldn't have been Asian in the reboot because of his last name.
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