Forum - View topicRurouni Kenshin (TV 1996 + movie + OAVs).
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SalarymanJoe
 Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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I think this is an interesting point, that even as a RurouKen fan for several years now, I've never thought of it from this perspective. If Kenshin had started with a little bit of character building necessary for a story and then flew into Shimabara, Yuutaro, and Fusui arcs, I don't think I'd be as "forgiving" as I am. It would have still entertained me, though it would be no where near the top of my favorites list as it is now. |
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HitokiriShadow
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I've never even seen the last season. After hearing about it, I just didn't feel like spending the money on it, even for the economy collection. I've seen the OVAs and I've read the manga, so I just don't see any reason to bother with it.
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Yuki Asuka
Posts: 13 Location: Infinity Area in Malaysia |
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Hahaha, I'd watched all episodes of TV series and Samurai X: Reflection. Those did complete my memory. ^ ^
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Iritscen
 Posts: 793 |
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You make a good point. They could have fought and simply never gotten anywhere because of needing to retreat and regroup. I would like to know when it is, though, that he says he fought Saito many times. I'm not saying he didn't say that, I just can't remember whether I ever heard that.
Yeah, and because they both know the other is honorable, once they agree that they should team up to fight Shishio they automatically know that they can more or less relax around each other because it would be dishonorable for someone to suddenly turn and attack someone after saying they would be an ally. To change topics entirely, I always thought it was interesting how Watsuki seemed to have already decided that there was something spoiler[artificial] about the meatball, I mean, Lord Iwanbo. At the time, I thought that the part about his head turning 180 degrees was just a weird joke, but later on it makes sense when you find out in the Jinchuu arc of the manga that spoiler[he's a freakin' robot]. Does everyone agree that Watsuki planned this revelation from the beginning? It would explain Iwanbo's spoiler[supertough skin, and also elements of his character design, such as that his eyes are solid white, with no pupils, which can be taken as a sign of being inhuman]. Even Iwanbo's being dopey can be taken as spoiler[how Gein was covering for the fact that he couldn't create an entirely convincing robot that could masquerade as a normal human]. |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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I could just be remembering wrong. It's been a long time since I saw RK or read it, so my memory is pretty fuzzy on the details. |
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Iritscen
Posts: 793 |
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As I reflect on it, I am starting to remember hearing something about "crossing swords many times during the Revolution" but I'm not sure, I could be making that up. It could be that I am totally wrong, and they did fight many times. I wish there was a place on the Web where you could read scripts of shows and search through them. Of course that would require someone to type them all up. As far as I can see no one has done that for RuroKen.
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ivorymoose
 Posts: 240 |
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Yes, Kenshin did say he fought Saito many times, he said that to Kaoru. He also said that although they were on different sides and crossed swords, they each did not have any personal grudges against the other. I believe Kenshin can easily beat Saito but he never did that.
I am very intrigued by the way Kenshin fights his opponents and I am interested to see how he wins his battles. I made few simple observations: 1. Kenshin knows his enemies. He knows them by talking to them. He engages his opponent in dialogue to find out their inner motives and the fundamental believe that gives strength to his opponents. He wants to know just why and for what purpose his opponents are fighting. 2. If possible, Kenshin avoids a fight and negotiates his way to a settlement with minimal loss of life or injury. Winning a battle without a fight. 3. He can anticipate his opponents next move. This is I believe is an in born ability combined with proper training and experience. 4. Appearing weak when he is strong. The more he is injured, the weaker he appears, the stronger he actually is, thus surprising his opponent. 5. The use of new technique not familiar to his opponent. 6. Political savy. He can very quickly smell a political plot when there is one. Perhaps, this is due to his experience. His decision not the join the government may be a correct calculated decision. 7. I forgot another important observation......Kenshin wins because he is determined to win. He knows what he is fighting for and whose side he is on from beginning till end. He fights for his believes and convictions. Hmmm....ok, I had better not rattle on with RK before you people get bored! I read Sun Tze, The Art of War. In particular, War and Management. This is why I like RK so much. May be, I'm imagining things and reading too deeply into nothing but these are some of my observations. |
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Batajitsu
 Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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That is true, however there are three people whom he cannot defeat/ couldn't defeat. Once the person knows his style of fighting, the battle becomes alot more challenging for him, if kenshin doesnt beat them the first time and they have skill, then the second time is much more challenging (provided the person is elite)
Kenshin cannot defeat Seijiro Hiko (His former master and the coolest guy to walk the earth), it's impossible, he would get owned so fast and so hard, the guy is way stronger then kenshin, his attacks have more force, he knows every single attack kenshin does and the fighting counters, he knows the strengths and weaknesses of the hiten mitsurugi style (SP HMS for short) Also hiko is just as fast as kenshin, perhapes faster, hence kenshin would again be at the loosing end. Not to mention he has mock arrogence that even though its just a show, his so damn good that he could get away with it.
Kenshin cannot defeat Saito, the two are rivals, their matches have never been decided although one can make arguments suporting each, they both are equally powerful, once the person knows kenshins style thats it for him, his suprise is ruined, if the person knows his strength they dont mess around. Saito is the last wolf, i think of the shinsen gumi, his in the trust and betrayel OAVs, please don't say things like kenshin could beat him easily. During the war they were equal, unless kenshin reverts back to his old self, and has the desire to kill, there is no way in hell he stands even the remotest chance of fighting Saito. Saito is cold blooded, and resourceful, watch episodes 20-25 around there the two fight. And finnaly, kenshin couldn't defeat Shishio, Shishio knew his style of fighting etc, he took on kenshin, saito, sano, and aioshi, and still bested them all, the only reason they won was because the injuries to his body causes him to die if he fights for too long... Let me point out kenshins weaknesses. 1 - Since the war he volwed never to kill again, as such his lost his murderous intent, without this more then half of his HMStyle of fighting is useless. As the HMS was designed to KILL! 2 - His very weak physicaly, remove the sword and his a sitting duck for anyone with a high degree of physical strength. Sano vs kenshin, if kenshin didn't have his sword... Bybye Kenshin, also Saito pwns Kenshin when Kenshin isn't armed. 3 - He puts his life in danger to protect others, with no regard for his own self (although this changes later in the series) With out the regard for his own life, he gets injured a great deal while trying to protect even the enemy. 4 - He talks too much... Very annoying 5 - His angered easily when it comes to Hiko 6 - His freinds are his primarily weakness, shown on many occasions when he would of won so easily, had he not of brought his freinds along. ]7 - You said he gets stronger when he gets weaker? The truth is, when he gets weaker he starts becomming more like his old self, as such his attacks have more ferocity as his intent has changed from peace to kill. 8 - He can not always anticipate his oponants next move, when this is the case his at a serious disadvantage (as shown from shishios side kick akito? I cant remember his name, the kid with no emotion.) Now i havn't watched this show in a very long time, but i'm almost sure that all of this is true, Kenshin is good, but when he fights people form the war era, you'll understand that there are others that have the same skill levels. Maybe more so. PS: I love Kenshin, but believing his unbeatable etc is untrue. EDIT: Around episodes 20-25 is when he tells that he crossed swords with Saito and the other shinshen gumi captions many times during the revolution(war) and each time the battle ended in a draw. All i know is, its disk 7 that he says all this on though. [EDIT: Removed the spoiler tags for easier reading. -TK] |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11315 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Man, you guys are all over the place. I don't even know where to begin in agreeing with some of the things you've said, then disagreeing on a lot of the others. Yes, Kenshin has many strengths and weaknesses, but the way you're going about it is in either extreme. ivorymoose is saying he's pretty much unbeatable, but Batajitsu isn't giving him enough credit and easily dismissing some of the facts that do make him quite formidable and a man of great character.
I'll compliment and debate each one of your arguments later today (it's almost 3AM here and I should get to sleep, plus I've got a lot of catching up to do on Maple Story because of all the posting I've done within the last couple of hours  ).
But rest assured, I will clear most, if not all of these points up... |
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Batajitsu
Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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I wrote that rather rushed... I'll explain.
I've given the reasons why he isnt unbeatable, but only in a context of strength vs weaknesses. He can preety much defeat any oponant that isn't up to his skill level. When it comes a time for an equal skill match, the fight becomes much more challenging as many of his advantages only work on amatures. The ability to predict an enemies movement is what gives him such a huge advantage in battle, once this has been removed, its only skill vs skill. And the HMStyle is one that requires a great deal of skill to use, and is very formidable, it has moves and counters for almost every sitution. What i was stating was that although kenshin is very hard to beat, he has weaknesses that are shown throughout the series which make him very much beatable, just like the other characters within the story, he is no more powerful and no less powerful then any of the main villians or the main allies (Aioshi/Saito) The only person who dominates him in all aspects is Hiko. His weaknesses are what leads to him being defeated and it's these weaknesses that are exploited which make it much more enjoyable to watch in how he over comes these weaknesses. It's been proven within the series itself that Kenshin cannot stand toe to toe with people from the revolution, unless he resorts to old nature where he is willing to be ruthless like his old self. He can defeat Saito, but Saito can also defeat kenshin. It is possible that he could also defeat Shishio, only i believe Shishios determination to win was far greater then Kenshins, also Kenshin was injuried from his battles over the last few days with other members of Shishios gang, including Aioshi. Back to predicting movements, it was proven that when he cannot predict an enemies movements a great majority of his skills are put on hold as he tries to search out and feel for the enemies weaknesses, and attempt to predict. However in many cases he simply cannot, (Aioshi, shishio, Saito, And Shishios lill right hand man) In these events he relies on pure combat experience, and skill to win, but when its skill v skill, he is no more stringer nor weaker then his opponant. So what im saying is, Kenshin is not unbeatable, but his also not easily beatable, against almost any enemy kenshin can defeat with little problem, but with those select few, such as saito etc, unless he restorts to be able to do what must be done, he stands no chance. I hope i've made what i was trying to say more clear, as i was pointing out simply why he is able to be beaten, and why he cant just beat anyone. But i was not saying that his easily beaten, as the the people who can get to his weaknesses, are those with tremendous skill, and even though he looses his main advantages, he still knows how to fight equally. A small edit : [spoiler]Just a small statement. Like all of the people within the series, kenshin is human, and he can be beaten. A large majority of the bosses are of equal skill to kenshin, as such many fights are hard to win. Everyone in the series is human, and as such each of the characters can and at one point are defeated Kenshin is no excpetion, (And i do think he rocks just i know his not invincible). [EDIT: Removed the spoiler tags for easier reading. -TK] |
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scriver058
 Posts: 127 Location: NY |
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Wow, it's great to see Rurouni Kenshin still getting love so many years after it's heyday (well, hasn't been that long since the manga was released). This is my favorite anime, as I own every DVD including the OVA's and movie and every volume of the manga, and the anime I credit with getting me back into anime in general when it was first shown on Cartoon Network (the first anime I ever saw was the old Guyver OVA, and shortly after that the Dragonball Z craze struck, and since I disliked that show a lot it put me off anime until RK came along). So many incredible things about the anime which have been mentioned already, so i'll just address a couple things:
Kyoto Arc- This was, and remains to this day, the greatest arc I have ever seen in any anime EVER. The story, the characters, the music, and the battles... just incredible. 3rd season- It's quite surprising to see so many speak highly of the 3rd season. I will add to this by saying that it started off well, with the Shimabara arc and the stuff with science shortly after. The German arc was passable, and it had some nice action bits, but the Feng Shui arc was were the anime went completely south for me. The bad guys fought... with rulers. Utterly lame way to close the anime. English dub- I am largely a dub fan, as i'll only watch a sub if it's a fansub of something not yet released, or if the dub is just incredibly horrible. RK's dub is one of the better dubs i've heard. Kenshin's english voice, as done by Richard Hayworth, superior to Mayo Suzake's Kenshin IMO. He just sounds way too girly in Japanese, which I suppose is to expected with a woman doing the voice. The rest of the english cast is good too, can't really pick out a bad voice. OVA's and movie- If the Kyoto arc is the greatest story arc i've ever seen in anime, then Trust and Betrayal is the greatest OVA. It's such a stark contrast to the tone of the anime, but it still works so well in showing Kenshin's past and the tragic circumstances behind the cross shaped scar. And the fight scenes are just so beautifully animated. Concerning the other OVA, Reflection, it is indeed beautifully done and very sad. Despite how Kenshin and Kaoru's personalities are misrepresented, I feel it's something of a fitting capper to the anime rendition of RK. Jinchu arc- Had this been animated, I believe it could've been just as great as the Kyoto arc. I desperately hope one day it will be animated, but the closest we might ever come is the bit that was animated in Reflection. Now, concerning what Batajitsu has said about Kenshin's style, I feel I must address it. Kenshin has his weaknesses, but he is the closest thing to unbeatable in the anime. The only character who is definitely on Kenshin's level is Shishio. Ones who approach Kenshin's level are Sojiro, and perhaps Aoshi. I could say tons about how Kenshin is superior, but it can be summed up fairly easily in one phrase: Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki. None of the characters I mentioned were able to defeat Kenshin's ultimate attack in it's truest form. Anyway, I will address the opponents worth mentioning in the following. NOTE: I'd attach spoiler tags hereafter, but having read the entire thread I think you people are fairly well aquainted with RK, plus I find the spoiler tags annoying here. Udo Jin-E: Kenshin's first fairly skilled opponent in the anime/manga. Kenshin should've had no problem handling this guy even with his vow not to kill, but bear in mind that Kenshin wandered for 10 years between leaving the revolution and becoming a border at the Kamiya house, and I highly doubt he fought any relevant battles in that time, if at all. His rust in taking on someone better than average showed, but he recovered quickly. He does not resort to his Battousai personality until the very end of the fight, when he is about to finish Jin-E. Shinamori Aoshi: This will cover both fights he had with Aoshi. In the first fight, Kenshin was taken aback by the fact that Aoshi is defensive minded and used hand to hand fighting techniques. But like the brilliant swordsman he is, he quickly compensates for it. Aoshi then busts out his best attack, and although it does connect, Kenshin manages to take some of the power out of that attack and figures out the secret of the attack after having seen it just once. After that, the fight is easy. The second time is during the Kyoto arc. Kenshin having seen how much Aoshi has changed, and hampered by the promise he made to Misao to bring him back, attempts to fight Aoshi without drawing his sword to get him to realize the error of his ways. Eventually forced to draw his sword, Kenshin still tries to hold back to snap Aoshi out of his funk. Finally realizing he can't hold back, Kenshin fights for real and turns the fight to his advantage rather easily. Unfortunately, he takes a lot of blows intentionally from Aoshi as he talks to him to get him to understand how stupid he's being. He succeeds, and they have one final confrontation in which Kenshin crushes Aoshi with his Ultimate attack. All in all, Aoshi was a step up from Jin-E, but still not on Kenshin's level. Remember, Aoshi HIMSELF states that the gap between his skills and Kenshin's is wide at the conclusion of this fight. Sojiro Seta: Kenshin's most brilliant fight strategy wise. Sword skill wise, Sojiro is on par with Kenshin, but he lacks Kenshin's smarts, analytical abilities, or intuitiveness and that puts him below Kenshin. Kenshin doesn't believe that Sojiro lacks emotions, it's just that he hides them away well due to a painful event in his past. Going by that assumption, he then goes on to ask Sojiro questions about why that is, which forces Sojiro to remember his past, opening the floodgates of emotion which Kenshin is quite adept at reading. After this, the fight is Kenshin's. Hajime Saito: Before I begin, let me say that Saito, after Kenshin, is my fave character. Now, in looking at Saito's style, I can't honestly say that he poses much of a challenge to Kenshin in a straight up sword duel. Yeah, the fight they did have in the anime would say otherwise, but the Kenshin at that point is not the Kenshin with the Ultimate Attack, or with the training he receives from Sejuro Hiko which makes him realize the worth of his life and enables him to fight at an equal level to his Battousai persona without the bloodlust. Going back to Saito, his style consists of thrusting his sword at a few different speeds and angles, with one admittedly dangerous thrust at a great speed with great power behind it at point blank range, called the Zeroshiki. Still, that Zeroshiki is nothing when compared to Kenshin's Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki. What makes Saito dangerous is his code of Aku Soku Zan, and that he does fight with everything he has (as well as fighting dirty), well when it comes to fighting Kenshin anyway. Still, I can't put Saito on Kenshin's level, as Kenshin trumps Saito in too many categories. Makoto Shishio: It's hard to judge Shishio properly, as when we actually do see him fight all his opponents are significantly injured, and he is also hampered by the 15 minute limit he has to put on his fights (though he largely ignores this during the actual fight). Still, he is the most skilled opponent Kenshin faces in the anime/manga. The ease with which he defeats Saito, Sanosuke and Aoshi even though all have fought previous fights is pretty telling of this fact. But it's even bigger that a seriously injured Kenshin brings Shishio to his knees. Kenshin sustains all Shishio's primary attacks (nearly dying in the process), discovers their secrets, and turns the tide of the fight through this and his mental toughness. Admittedly, even after taking some of Kenshin's most powerful attacks Shishio seems hardly fazed, but once Kenshin defeats Shishio's Kagutzuchi and connects with the second, more powerful attack of his Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki, Shishio is definitely feeling it. Unfortunately, the fight doesn't get a true conclusion as Shishio's time runs out. But up until right before then, Kenshin and Shishio are on equal footing, and it's very likely the next one who would've landed a blow would've won, making Shishio Kenshin's most deadly opponent. Yukishiro Enishi: Finally, we come to Kenshin's final real opponent. Enishi had some deadly techniques, but his overemphasis on offense, particularly his Kyokemiaku or "Frenzied Nerves" was his downfall, something Kenshin was very easily able to exploit to defeat him, making the fight lopsided in Kenshin's favor by the end. And even before that final battle, Kenshin would've defeated Enishi at the Kamiya dojo if not for the interference of Enishi's underling, despite his Final Attack being defeated. Wow, I wrote a lot. Guess you'd be able to tell that this is my favorite anime. Anyway, as stated, Shishio was clearly Kenshin's biggest threat, with honorable mentions to Sojiro, Aoshi and Enishi. Let's not forget that Kenshin fights with a Sakabato (reverse blade sword), and a vow never to kill again, and he still owns all these guys? Kenshin is the most unbeatable character in the anime. Also, wouldn't you guys love to see a Rurouni Kenshin fighting game in the mold of Soul Calibur, with that game's fighting engine and super attacks added on? It would be awesome IMO. |
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Batajitsu
Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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ENTIRE POST OF SPOILERS
Again im going to have to disagree with saito, each of the two attacks kenshin recieves has their weaknesses especially the final move, cant spell it.. These attacks enable kenshin to fight to his full potential without the need for blood lust, however it is arguable that saito has always fought kenshin at that level, everytime they engaged, an extra two techniques, if saito sees them once, theres a high probability he'll find a counter, and depending on when in the anime we are deciding they fight, depends on who would win.... IMO they would both collapse unconcious neither being able to land a desisive blow. And as i mentioned kenshin couldn't defeat aioshi unless he restors to the need for blood lust which puts him at that higher level. The fact that he over comes himself and puts him on that high level regardless is what enabled him to beat Aioshi, Aioshi when you think about it, is on par with kenshin up until kenshin learns the two skills. (Sides Aioshi just looks uber cool, does he ever fight again after the shishio arc?) And shishio, yea remember when ksnhin started having that aura surround him of cracking leaves? then shishio started getting torrents of fire? i think sano mentioned the huge power difference there. Also i don't think shishios goal was wrong, he had determination and that's why he was more powerful, as his determination and dream was what fueled him, if the story was changed around and shishio was the main characters, kenshin saito etc could eaily be seen as the bad guys... Cept for the whole stabbing your gf part and provided they put a spin on it on how they controled villages, but adding that controlling villages part could of been used to ave the peopple dislike shishio more.... And jin-e was there to prove that kenshin could only defeat weak oponants unless he resorted to blood lust (or later on the series we all know) And i used seta to illustrate a point that once kenshin looses his key ability to predict the movements his at a huge disadvantage, and instead needs rely on just skill and counters, but since his skill and counter couldnt defeat sojiro seta he, like he always does talks and trys to get them to remember something, and once that happened seta lost his advantage. What would of happened though if talking didn't work? Would we see a dead kenshin? Also seta knew the weakness of the ultimate attack didn't he? Again i don;t remember too well. When it comes to top notch fighters, many of the times the attacks are always counter and atack and then counter again , instead of just attack. Isn't all of Seito's moves counter attacks or somethin? Except his ultimate attack.. It's been ages since i've seen this show, and i havn't seen past the christian arc, it jus got so crap for me after ken was blinded... O and that last OVA reflections, the ending ruined the whole series for me. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11315 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Okay, there was too much new info added since my last post for me to really quote stuff and break it down one by one now, but I'll try to point out the real important details.
First, I agree with a majority of ivorymoose's analysis on Kenshin's fighting style. Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuu is essentially psychological swordsmanship. You read your opponent, predict their moves by analyzing their character and swordsman spirit, and blah blah blah. However, I don't agree on the whole "weaker body = higher skill" idea. You could argue that his psyche and determination to win go up because he'll start to realize the eventual consequences, and thus become desperate, but I wouldn't label his actual, physical abilities increasing as a result of being injured (which is what it looks like you're saying, unless you use some kind of logical explanation like adrenaline). Granted, his powers of observation are keen and his fighting style quite formidable, but as is being debated at the moment, a number of factors (mostly from his own personality) can make a difference. Now, to Batajitsu's comments. This one, I'll have to quote:
You're forgetting that Kenshin did defeat his master in the process of acquiring Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki. The whole point of even learning such a technique is that the apprentice ends up slaying his master, thus also becoming Hiko Seijurou the (insert number) and successor of all things Hiten Mitsurugi. The only reason Hiko survived is because Kenshin was using a sakabatou, and it was even loose at the hilt, of all things. But clearly, he was able to beat Hiko, and did.
I would argue that it ends in either a draw or Kenshin being the victor. While Saitou obviously possesses an advantage in having sakki (killer intent), by the time Kenshin had mastered his final technique, he had already defeated at least 3 high-calibre opponents in Hiko, Aoshi, and Soujirou, all of who had similar intent. Just because Kenshin lacks sakki does not mean he still can't win. Because of his personality (post-Bakumatsu and after training), the particular kind of sword he wields, and the psychological critera required to perform the final technique, he still managed to beat all of the top fighters, when Saitou had just as much trouble fighting Usui, of all people. If they were of equal fighting skill by the time they actually fought Shishio in the final episodes of Kyoto, then Saitou should've at least been able to last longer than expensing all of his Gatotsu stances only to be impaled in the shoulder, Guren Kaina'd, and put out of commission. Kenshin had gone through Aoshi and Soujirou and still almost managed to beat Shishio in that condition, which brings us to the next topic.
This is the one and sure thing I'll agree with, but only based on factual events leading up to the battle. Given Kenshin's conditon at the time, he obviously wasn't fighting at full strength, so theoretically we'll never really know who is the stronger of the two. But Shishio clearly had the advantage and more than likely would've killed Kenshin and everyone else on that rooftop had he not self-combusted. From a psychological perspective, I would say each of their motivations were on equal footing. Sano even mentioned during the fight that their thought processes were alike, only the personalties were completely opposite; Shishio's drive to survive and conquer versus Kenshin's fortitude to serve and protect. I suppose you could argue for either side, but even Shishio admitted in Soujirou's flashback that he was an "evil man." And certainly, most would agree that "using the weak as food," as quoted by Shishio's ideology, is mistaken if it means taking/playing with lives just to achieve your ambitions. Now, for the weaknesses:
Not true. As I mentioned in his acquring the final technique, he also met a certain psychological criteria that allowed him to achieve full strength as Kenshin, while at the same time never having to revert into Hitokiri Battousai. As Battousai, his mentality was that he had no fear of death and that absolute victory would be the result of a fatality. But in contrast, the underlying ideal of Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki is that you needed to have the will to live, as that is the strongest spirit any man could have. And by mastering the technique, he was able to use it at his disposal (albeit, at a high physical toll), and thus defeat plenty of tough opponents. Again, the absence of sakki is irrelevant as the only difference in his execution of HMR is that the blade is now reversed so he wouldn't be able to kill his opponent anyway. Every technique was still applicable, otherwise they wouldn't have worked in disabling most of his enemies from previous episodes in the first place.
That's pure speculation. You'd have to assume that Kenshin would somehow lose his sword or sheath in the first place. The chances of that happening are actually pretty low, and we have no proof of "what if..." since it only happened on two occassions anyway (versus Saitou at Kamiya Doujo, then against Chou while in search for a replacement sakabatou), but even then he had his sheath at least.
That's a personal characteristic, not a weakness that would hinder the outcome of his battles. And besides, like I said earlier, HMR is psychological swordsmanship used to gauge your opponent. Talking to make them say something only helps out in that perspective.
Again, just a personal characteristic. It was more so for comedy relief than anything else.
Do you have an example? Because by Kyoto, every single one of the people in his entourage served some kind of relevant purpose (aside from Ayame and Suzume, but they don't even exist in the manga).
Only in a few cases (versus Jin'e, Saitou the first time, then Chou, and a little bit against Hiko, but they stopped before anything happened). Again, I mentioned this above about the whole self-determination/desperation bit.
Yet because of Soujirou's special circumstances, Kenshin was actually able to make him snap by doing essentially nothing other than preaching his ideals on protecting the weak. Soujirou was messed up in the head anyway, so that's sort of his own fault for thinking about it too much as well. Okay, I need a break now...  .
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Batajitsu
Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Did you foillow the follow up thread i posted after? Because much of what you are saying was explained in that post.
I did not forget that, your also forgetting that hiki can break kenshins attacks with ease, if kenshin an hiko uses the same attack, hikos comes out dominate, that is also shown when they both use the same technique. The master LETS the aprentice kill them, or rather forces the aprentice to kill them, in a straight fight Hiko spanks kenshin from here to tomorrow. There is no comparison, Hiko knew the attack he was going to use would either lead to his defeat or lead to his aprentices death. Using this technique was part of the training, in an open fight, he would not be so foolish to attack with a move that kenshin could counter. Kenshin was ment to counter that, he knew it and was prepared to loose because of it. But using that one instant to say kenshin can beat hiko is untrue, although he did defeat him, it wasnt a fight, but really more of a trainnig session. Also points 4 and 5 were ment to be a joke. Noi cant remember spefics like i said been along time i do remember saito telling sano that though, and with aioshi's gang the first time maybe something there. However i do recall one time when yahiko is captured by that bad guy in the first epp and he lost kenshins sword? Or somethin like that. |
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ivorymoose
Posts: 240 |
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I watched this duel countless times. I am certain Kenshin is no match for Sojiro in terms of speed and skill but Kenshin's mind is stronger than Sojiro's. His reasons to fight is firmer, he is more experienced. Kenshin managed to analyze and understand the feelings and convictions of his opponent, convincing Sojiro that he must find his own truth. Sojiro lost mental concentration and focus, that was how Sojiro lost.
I watched this countless times also. "If you are strong you live, if you are weak you die.....the weak shall become food for the strong" Shishio keep telling Kenshin his no kill policy is going to cost him his life. I really hate to say this, but Shishio's rhetoric when applied to corporate politics in the world of work and business is unfortunately true. If you do not "fight" for your career or business, you die, you will become food for others. However, I'm not sure if attacking others (the weak) when unprovoked in order to gain position or market share is right. I am not that aggressive. Back to the anime.....Kenshin is technically superior to Shishio because his Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki did hurt Shishio badly and almost killed him but his consort (can't remember her name) aided him by sacrificing her life. Kenshin may be highly skilled but it is the cunning Shishio who is ruthless and willing to use underhanded methods who managed to turn the tide. I am actually certain that if not for the fact that "TIME" chose Kenshin as the winner, Kenshin might not have won. If you look at the work place and business world, you see that many a times, the best skilled person is not promoted or the best small companies fold up. I think that skills + political savvy is important for survival, winning and gettng ahead. I just won't let anyone get hurt. Perhaps, this is why I'm always weak. Shishio's philosophy is definitely wrong when applied to the political scenario in the context of the anime but it is not wrong when applied to some other context. From a pure military stand point, I agree that Kenshin's no kill policy is a problem that could cost him his life. I don't think Kenshin is undefeatable. His no kill policy can be annoying. |
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