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GinKamikaze
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 8
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:19 pm
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@Jello : Tsundere is after all said and done a slangy term and whether we (I, u or anyone else) like it or not if u want to make urself understood u gotta have to be able to use it correctly at some point ... and I'm not trying to illustrate the whole meaning of it here just stating that it's not either good nor bad.
@Hachicho : sure it's about pride and true masculinity is manifested through a lifestyle rather than disparate "cool" actions ... it's not smth u really learn ... more u become over time if u're moderately normal also I can say that I'm a lolicon myself but that doesn't necessarily mean I go and mollest little girls as a hobby =)) anyone with a healthy sexual life and appetite has 1 or 2 sexual fantasies ... it's human nature ... also hardcore no-life otakus as portrayed by Jello are a rare breed that me thinks should die out pretty soon because it's not a natural human behaviour =D
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Kruszer
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 7987
Location: Minnesota, USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:01 pm
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Whether you like them, depends on whether you have the combat training and experience to handle a tsundere and their violent tendencies. Either that or you're a glutton for punishment.
Seriously though, whether or not I like a tsundere character really depends on how well the character is developed in the show. They come across as overly high maintenance or just plain mean if both sides of the character are not shown well.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:49 pm
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PetrifiedJello wrote: | Definition (2): A term used by "otaku" to separate themselves out from other anime viewers as know-it-alls who can't agree on what truly defines the term but will vehemently argue points to those who offer a differing version. It's a common belief those "otaku" using the term pine to be the male lead, regardless how badly he's treated. |
I think you're confusing tsundere with moe - the easiest definition of tsundere is "almost any role voiced by Rie Kugimiya".
Quote: | Take, as an example, The Familiar of Zero. Here we have Louise, who's a noble magi, who conjurs up a human as her familiar. What ensues is a relationship built on being around each other. For better or worse, these stories can be found in real life, though we don't rush to use the term "tsundere" while discussing them. |
Tsundere is a recent Japanese neologism (the JA Wiki article was created in 2005) that is specific to a exaggerated character archetype that is pretty specific to the medium of Japanese games, anime and manga, so..
Quote: | I loved this series and never gave it a second thought on how Louise acted towards Saito. Why would I? I was more interested to see how the two worked together. Anyone watching these types of series should expect (even if it's not delivered) the two leads will eventually wind up together. |
The dynamic between the two is the crux of the whole series, and that is based on how she bossed him around but still cares for him, and how he dislikes being bossed around but still care for her etc, which is a classic tsundere relationship. In a game she would be one of the "choices" but here she is marmite. I know someone who complains vehemently about an anime if a girl displays violence towards a guy but others love that sort of character.
Quote: | Some of you may be too young, but there was a series called Moonlighting on ABC starring Bruce Willis (yep, it's true) and Cybil Sheppard. The series' entire dynamic was based on the "feud" the two had with each other.
However, the moment they became a couple, the series was canceled as people changed the channel.
The irony here is that never once have I heard the term "tsundere" describing this show, but anime fans can clearly relate this live-action series with a number of anime series. |
Why would they? Moonlighting pre-dates the term by years (all I can remember is Bruce Willis playing his own child in the womb) and again, the term is currently localise to anime fandom and targetted at anime.
Quote: | I'm curious to know if many of you sit and watch a series, pen and paper in hand, then jot down every conceivable term (in Japanese no doubt) so you can rush to a forum and announce what you've witnessed or do you actually just sit back, relax, and try to enjoy what you've invested time and/or money in. |
I don't, but TVTropes exists for the reason that people do.
Quote: | Before someone rushes out to start a new thread on what we think about "moe", "loli", and "fanservice", note my answer here applies to those idiotic terms as well.
Now, if you'll excuse me, it's time to watch another series covered more by labels from fans than what can be printed on the back cover. |
Why do you have a problem with labelling concepts? Again - TVTropes is a popular site composed entirely of them. Why should we have to say "you won't like Kodomo no Jikan because it has squicky stuff with really young kids" when the term "loli" is pretty well understood as a warning to keep away if you don't like that stuff? What the heck are shows like Ikkitousen and Queens Blade if not vehicles for fanservice? It's a label, it fits - use it or ignore it.
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egoist
Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:58 pm
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I guess a single line could define"tsundere": Female character who physically threatens a male character. Or if you want to reduce this to one word just say "bitch". Basically tsundere equals bitch, and moe equals cute.
But your usual tsundere does annoy me, Taiga and Louise for example. But I enjoy characters like Senjougahara, well developed and perhaps farther from the idiotic types that Taiga and Louise are. Why do I call them idiotic? Because they punch others out of shyness. Break, please.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:35 pm
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egoist wrote: | I guess a single line could define"tsundere": Female character who physically threatens a male character. Or if you want to reduce this to one word just say "bitch". Basically tsundere equals bitch, and moe equals cute. |
It isn't that simple. Tsundere is made up of tsuntsun and deredere. What you're describing is just tsuntsun - the stick without the carrot so to speak.
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RHachicho
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 897
Location: Essex, UK
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:47 am
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Quote: | also I can say that I'm a lolicon myself but that doesn't necessarily mean I go and mollest little girls as a hobby =)) |
Aye I do get the fact that there are people who just seem to be born like that or for some reason awaken to those sorts of desires and if you can be satisfied with Anime then your still a top bloke in my opinion. Still it seems somewhat dangerous to promote such trend's because not all people are as sensible and self restrained as you. Still that's just one man's opinion.
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bravetailor
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 817
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:06 pm
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GinKamikaze wrote: | Tailor, dude/girl, for the love of God stop mentioning "Shinji Ikari" =)) u did in 3 different consecutive posts =D
Cheers and dun hate terminology ... it is not alive |
Shinji's just so easy a target that I can't help it.
Anyway, I'm a guy. And like I said, I'm far from a feminist. I think I'm bothered more about the otaku-centric nature of these labels than the actual sexual context of these labels itself. It kind of reflects this sort of smug, "We're better than the material we're watching" attitude and that annoys me to no end. Even when these labels are applied in a positive manner ("I like Haruhi! Her tsundere-ness is sooo kawaii!"), I do think it's still unintentionally condescending.
But as someone mentioned earlier, it's not just otaku with this attitude as well. It does seem to me that this cynical, smug jaded-ness is much more a product of 21st century sensibilities than in any previous decade. I do see it with followers of American TV and Hollywood movies as well.
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12skippy21
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 785
Location: York, England
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:04 pm
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To be philosophical for a moment I always imagined that 'tsundere (the modern definition)' was just an extreme representation of a personality trait we all posess. Anyone can go from cute to vicious fairly rapidly, they always say females give off mixed signals for example.
Despite this I haved mixed feelings towards 'tsundere' animes because they tend to be predictable in terms of comedy and relationship dyamnics and this can choke the show similiar to how a predictable harem show does. The anime can still be good depending on how the other characters react and the overarching story. I thought Toradora and Full Metal Panic were both good when the two main characters from each were not playing the tit for tat game which followed cliche after cliche. Sometimes the 'tsundere' can aid the humour, I think BiriBiri is adorable in both her tsun and dere aspects. It justs depends on your personal preference towards women (men to but they are not usually tsundere), mine direct more to liking characters of Yuki's or Sawako's demeanor. I think they should use more male 'tsundere' characters though.
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GinKamikaze
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 8
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:50 pm
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Lol skippy if they used more male tsundere then 70% of the otakus would be really dissapointed ... and I'm being indulgent wif the amount of female otakus here =D
Sure more male otakus would be a welcome diversity but it takes about 100% more brains to create at least a decent male-tsundere =P so I guess the easy way out is better these days
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KanjiiZ
Joined: 28 Jun 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Central Coast
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:14 pm
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I tend to avoid series with tsundere characters as a lead. Toradora, Familiar of Zero, etc. I just find those shows so irritating. It's yet another moe archetype that gets placed in to nearly every harem show. I really don't like all of those otaku words that get created everyday like yandere and tsundere. What is the point of having characters like that?
The biggest problem with tsundere that I have it's the thought that if she's a tsundere she has to act, talk and do everything in a certain way. What thrill do anime fans get off of seeing a guy get punched in the face into orbit because he snuck a peek at a girls panties?
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RHachicho
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 897
Location: Essex, UK
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:03 am
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Aye I guess it depends on the extremes it is used to theres a certain charm in a girl whose a bit hostile to the lead and then softens to him later but in some Anime's it's gotten to the crazy stage. However even some of the crazy ones can be funny if done right. But its a balance so often missed.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:26 pm
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The first serious tsundere that I came across in anime was Asuka Langley Soryu from NGE. I still think of her as a prototypical tsundere.
So, to me, a tsundere is someone who uses harhness, violence, and cruelty to hide their inner feelings, even from themselves. It's a type of defense mechanism for someone who hasn't yet learned how to express their emotions openly. Thus, it is *not* something we all have, but is usually found in people whose emotional development is still pretty immature.
To go back to Asuka, it's pretty clear that she has feelings for Shinji and sub-consciously quashes them... but they're still there. Confused and probably angry that she can't get rid of how she feels, she takes her frustrations out on those around her, particularly the one she blames for feeling that way. In other words, that's what makes her tsundere, rather than just assertive and opinionated, IMO.
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