Forum - View topicREVIEW: Shakugan no Shana III (Final)
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5876 Location: Virginia, United States |
|
|||
|
Sorry, but Yuji's actions are not of a man in love with Shana. We are all mortal, and we all are going to die. That is not an excuse to kidnap, beat, and kill your girlfriend for a chance of her being immortal.
He was willing to have her die, his friends and allies also. That is the action of a insane evil man. Insane does not necessarily mean crazy. Yes, he didn't want her to die, but he was willing to accept that possibility if it meant his overarching plans would go forward. Yes, power corrupts, and ultimate power corrupts ultimately. But that takes time, and the failure of the people around you to keep you grounded. Using a fictional subject, Anakin Skywalker did not become Darth Vader overnight. It took years of his mind being poisoned, and his failure to fully heed his Jedi training. Lots of years. Even with the flash backs, Yuji turned on a dime. Yes, this is a fictional anime, but if we correlate Yuji's actions to real life, we would not be as forgiving or as understanding as some are. Yuji is not some alien character, with a non-human thought process, like Kyubey. Yuji did more than just risk Shana's like, there was a clear possibility that she would be killed during the conflict by his fighters and allies, and even the chance that he might have to kill her personally. Yes, forgiveness is important, but it also must be earned, not just blindly given out. Season Three Yuji had done many evil things and he has not been held accountable for his actions. Almost reminds me of some Philippine Teleseryes were you can commit murder and rape and all is forgiven, even your victims forgive you (or are expected by everyone else, to forgive you.) |
||||
|
||||
Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
|
|||
|
I don't think we're going to convince each other here, and honestly I'm kind of still tired from our big debate in the Shana thread, so I'll try to to explain my view in a way that will help you figure out where I'm coming from and hopefully let you understand why I'm so much more sympathetic to a character you view as "insane and evil."
I think there are a couple of points where our views strongly differ. Firstly, the whole "do the ends justify the means" question becomes irrelevant if one doesn't even believe the ends are particularly good, and this is definitely an issue you have with Yuji's actions.spoiler[ I believe the ultimate result that Yuji ended up bringing about was something really really good, something that substantially improved the situation of the world and helped everyone from Denizens to humans. You don't. No need to go over all the specific details of the ending again, we've debated that a lot already, but the impression I get from your posts is that even if the end result of the series had been brought about by Yuji with zero innocent loss of life or bloodshed, your reaction would still be something like, "ok, things are little better now, maybe. We'll see." In your view, "do the ends justify the means?" isn't even a question at all because you think the ends kind of suck.] Also, I think I am a lot more tolerant of "ends justify the means" decisions than you are anyways. At least in some works of fiction. I don't want to get into too much of a discussion of personal beliefs, but I'll say that I while do have strong beliefs on what is right and wrong and generally don't think that "the ends justify the means" in most real life cases, my moral beliefs are closely tied to my religious views. Or to explain it differently, I believe that morality is intrinsically tied to nature of God, and thus, when considering a fictional setting where the God/Gods that may or may not exist are completely different from what I believe is the case in real life, what I believe is the right decision in a fictional setting can be different from what I believe is the right decision in real life. And I believe that, based on the setting of Shakugan no Shana, Yuji made the right decision as far as the world as a whole is considered. Or actually, that's not quite true. I believe that allying with the Snake of the Festival and bringing about the Grand Order in some fashion was the right decision, and definitely a better decisions than choosing to fight the Snake of the Festival and reject his plans entirely. But, Yuji clearly had some influence over the Snake of the Festival, and possibly could have convinced him to attempt to bring about his plans in a more peaceful manner. Part of the problem with season 3 is that we never really saw Yuji's thought processes, never really knew what he was thinking. How much consideration did he give trying to bring about the Grand Order peacefully? We do know that 3,000 years ago, the Snake of the Festival tried to do things peacefully, and it got him sealed away, so it's understandable that he would be more cynical and cautious this time around. But even so, the modern Flame Hazes are different people than those 3,000 years ago. Just what was going on in Yuji's head when he and the Snake waged war against the Flame Hazes preemptively? We don't know. Perhaps Yuji did try and convince the Snake to do things peacefully, but the Snake said "no, I'm not making that mistake again" and Yuji said "ok, if there's no other choice I'll still help you." Who knows? I can come up with all sorts of potential plans that Yuji and the Snake could have come up with that might have gone better, and so I think Yuji didn't make the decision that was completely right, at least based on what was shown, but he certainly didn't make the decision that was completely wrong. And so there is our big disagreement. spoiler[I believe Yuji accomplished something great, something worth doing,] and I believe that allying with the Snake to do so was the right decision. I believe most of Yuji's mistakes in the execution of his plans were not the result of evil intent, but the result of being misguided and also being a in a bit over his head with everything going on. Hopefully I explained myself in a way where you don't think I'm some horrific immoral monster or anything. |
||||
|
||||
notazaku
 Posts: 135 |
|
|||
|
I find stories in which evil deeds bring about good results tend to elicit one of three distinct reactions from the viewer.
1. The good end justified the evil means. So Yuji's not so bad. 2. The means is never justified by the ends. The end no matter how good is not worth it if it is achieved by evil acts. So Yuji is a villain and he should probably watch out for Rorschach. 
3. The good ends do not justify the evil means, but what's done is done and I can live with the good ends. The viewer is torn and uneasy about the story. In this case they would believe Yuji is wrong and should be stopped, but they can live with the end result if the world is a better place in the end. I think alot of people fall under #3. It is an uncomfortable gray area, but it is supposed to be. |
||||
|
||||
|
TarsTarkas
Posts: 5876 Location: Virginia, United States |
|
|||
|
Kind of agree with you notazaku.
Really, if we were just dealing with the nameless masses I'd probably be less mad with Yuji's actions. But Yuji's betrayals were on a personal level, he entered this knowing he was probably going to kill some of his friends, and quite possibly Shana, too. That's why the argument that this was all about saving Shana, falls flat with me. If you look at Yuji's actions logically, this is all about Yuji changing the world order, perhaps to the betterment of his home world. Yuji betrayed his friends and love to enact this action. If Shana and his friends were killed by what he started, he'd would be sad, but he would also be resolute in his actions. Season three Yuji's passion is changing the world order, not Shana. If you truly love someone, you are not going to enact measures that you know will get them killed. I liked Code Geass, and I really liked Lelouch. Despite his "ends justifies the means" mentality, because I believed and understood what he was doing. His reasons for doing such things were believable and strong. You saw this quite clearly throughout the series. Lelouch also had a sense of responsibility and knew he would have to pay a price for his actions. Yuji's actions on the other hand seem to discount his supposed end goal and became a somewhat nebulous goal of creating a new world for the Denizens. I don't understand Yuji's logic, and it seems at cross purposes to what it was said was his initial goal. Lelouch (Code Geass) had the history and clear cut reasons for his actions. Yuji sadly did not. Personally, I think that Lelouch wanted to die, because spoiler[it was his fault that Euphemia was forcibly turned evil, and that he had to kill her to stop her, or a mercy killing, depending on your take. A sad, but good tale.] Mad_Scientist you are right we probably won't agree, but at the end of the day it is only a anime, and it was great debating about it. |
||||
|
||||
|
notazaku
Posts: 135 |
|
|||
|
Lelouch also took measures to keep his friends out of danger. It didn't always work though for example spoiler[Shirley]. But when planning an operation he would take into account the risk to his friends. spoiler[Using Ashford Academy as the Black Knights' base of operations ] at the end of season 1 was to ensure his friends' and sister's safety during the battle.
As for Shana III, changing the status quo and building a better world is a noble goal but I can't really relate to someone putting their loved ones at risk to do it. Although I think I understand what Mad_Scientist means about Shana dying in battle if things didn't change. That could make Yuji desperate enough. What's a little more risk to her life if it brings peace and saves her from dying in battle. The key word there is desperate and the show needs to communicate that. Otherwise finding a more reasonable road to peace that does not involve betraying your friends is what Yuji should have done. Although admittedly that would probably be far less dramatic. 
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
|
|||
Indeed, it's nice to have a spirited debate that remains civil.
That, I agree with. Yuji's despair and frustration over Shana's situation is conveyed much more clearly in the Light Novels. Or so I've heard. Season 3 really needed a couple of extra episodes or something to focus more on Yuji and his thoughts and make up for the lack of foreshadowing and development in previous seasons. |
||||
|
||||
|
MaxSouth
Posts: 1363 |
|
|||
|
To have even Theron, who is probably the kindest soul here among reviewers, tating this anime C+ for the story, the scenario has to be really bad, blatantly nonsensical.
You can take many parts of the script and make some consistency out of it, but for that you have to leave out other parts that would ruin any sense you are trying to make. In the attempt to explain and rationalize the story, some go great lengths trying to stretch the excuses however thin or, as Theron says, "tenuous" those are turn out to be. I was saying this before and I have to say this again: Shana III is gross conceptual failure and en epic mess. That said, it is still good anime. |
||||
|
||||
nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5124 |
|
|||
|
It seems to me (and I could be wrong about this) that the first season was produced with no expectation of any more seasons being green-lighted. If -- as seems probable -- the second season was produced with the third in mind, then it seems to me that the production committee should be considered at least partly responsible for how the last two seasons turned out.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
|
|||
I'm not sure. Based on the way both of the first two seasons ended, I kind of thought they were uncertain about whether they'd be able to make future seasons in both cases. If they were indeed fairly confident in a third season coming out at the time they did the second, I really have no idea what they were thinking. All that stuff they added to the second season that wasn't even in the novels, when they could have been trying to make up for missing characterizations/foreshadowing they left out in the first season. |
||||
|
||||
egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
|
|||
|
I just can't get through this, as much as I liked Shakugan no Shana in the past.
Season 3 feels like I'm watching a bunch of school kids from the drama club doing some cheap acting in front of a few dozen of adults who'd only clap because it's their kids up there. Meh. |
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group