Forum - View topicREVIEW: Bizenghast GN 1
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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We are actually planning Dramacon and Off*Beat reviews for the near future. We've also got an OEL feature in the works that will highlight the best and worst examples of the form. I review what they send me, so it's not like I'm going out of my way to pick bad OEL titles. |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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You need some work on your analogies. I seriously hope that you aren't comparing yourself to a doctor with a Ph.D. This is just as bad as the Beatles analogy. And you say you've taken classes, but a doctor with a Ph.D. is hardly comparable to someone who says they've taken classes but offers no proof. And even if you have taken art classes, I doubt you've gotten a degree in the subject of manga or anime or comics, which is the only relevent degree, as that's what we're discussing. Hell, I could write reviews for a website, but that doesn't mean I know everything there is to know about the topic. And as you say above, "As it stands, you tell us all we're wrong, openly admit that you don't know anything at all about art but your opinion is "just as valid!". I'm sorry, but it isn't", Really? You say you've taken classes, but I'd be willing to bet the majority of people on here have absolutely no art training whatsoever. I took 4 years of art classes in high school, two years of general art, and two years of animation, I realize high school is not college, but I wonder how many people on here who think their opinion is more valid then mine haven't even gone to high school yet. And honestly, I put absolutely no trust in reviews, as I've yet to read a single unbiased review. Even if you have a degree of some sort, it all boils down to your personal preferences. In fact, this is the internet, so I shouldn't believe anything you say anyways, in your own words from Anime Insider #24, "People the internet is a bad, bad place. It's a sanctuary of falsehoods, a grand idol to deception, a place where no man finds the truth. Everyone on the internet is lying to you all the time about everything, especially in internet forums, which are like beehives except instead of bees their crazy kids in Gundam T-shirts and instead of honey they produce misinformation. Avoid it at all costs, unless you need to visit the Anime Insider website which is the sole bastion of all that is pure and true on the internet." Huh. Interesting. Internet forums you say? Anime Insider the only decent website? Your words, not mine. And I'd like to point out that this was in response to a question someone asked you about Fruits Basket which you were wrong about. I knew you were wrong about it when I read it, and I bet alot of other people did as well. But it doesn't matter, cause you're still obviously superior to me. Sure. |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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Let me try to wrap this argument up (I said try, it probably won't work, but it's worth a shot.). The whole argument essentially boils down to opinions. I like her art, and you don't. That's pretty much it. That doesn't make you right and me wrong, or vice versa, we just have two different opinions.
Although I do have a problem with comments like this. Refering to someone who just writes reviews as a "god" makes me feel like things have gotten out of hand. I get the feeling that even if people did actually like her book, they might not say so because they're afraid of offending "god". I find it hard to believe that people seem to like her work, yet it appears that none of them visit here. If I were writing reviews I would want people to disagree with me. I would want people to argue with me. I would want people to say "Hey, I think you're wrong about that, and I like that series no matter what you say.". Because I'd just be a reviewer, I wouldn't be a "god", I'd just be a guy. Let's not blow things out of proportion here. Zac and Chris Beveridge are probably two of the biggest names in american anime fandom (at least the ones that don't involve dressing up in incredibly inappropriate costumes) but that doesn't mean I have to listen to everything they say. Chris Beveridge doesn't like Spirited Away. I do. Simple difference of opinion. Most people I've talked to do really like Spirited Away. But Chris Beveridge has been an anime fan longer then most of us, so we must be wrong, right? Nope, just a difference of opinion. I also feel it's worth mentioning that I've never heard Chris Beveridge bring up any art classes he may have taken to try to win an argument. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Except that it ISN'T just a difference of opinions. There are problems that are not a result of opinions (such as perspective, as Zac has mentioned). You may like her art and that's fine. That doesn't change the FACT that she has problems with some of the things that Zac mentioned.
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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Except that's not true. I've got the book sitting next to me, and Vincent and the guy with the axe only appear in a panel together three times in the entire book, the one panel previous to the picture in the review only shows part of the back of Vincent's head and he's standing a ways away from the guy with the axe so there's no way to tell who is taller. The last panel, shows the guy shooting a gun at Vincent from a distance, again, no way to tell who's taller. |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2271 Location: Online Terminal |
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That's what I figured. It's a shame you keep getting such apparently lousy samples. At least we'll have something good soon. (I've been considering looking into Dramacon) All right, it's been five pages and I have to say this: that manga got Bizengowned by Zac. 
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ChrisBeveridge
Posts: 162 |
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My mad fingerpainting skills own! Those Art Zone classes I take with my five year old every other friday at kindergarten, like, rock the class! And just to throw an on-topic comment in here, like Zac and the others at ANN here, TOKYOPOP sends us review copies of most of the OEL stuff (rarely any Japanese manga unfortunately since that's what we review. Go figure) so I do see what they put out but other than Dramacon, I simply can't read any of it because it just feels so bad. I stared buying comics as a kid in the late 70's and hit my teens during the black and white glut that happened in the mid to late 80's. And you know what? Most of that came across better as comics and storytelling than what TOKYOPOP has signed up. There are dozens and dozens of creators out there that deserve a chance at something bigger but when I see the kind of stuff that TP is putting out, it just makes me ignore it all the more. Especially when I get in a copy of Idiots and find that they've got the WALTRIP brothers doing the artwork for it. Good god, I thought we crucified them years ago and got them to stop producing godawful Robotech comics. If that's the "established talent" that TP is going to be bringing in, then the entire operation truly is spitballs, gum and a paperclip. I love what TP does for the most part with its manga and manhwa, but their OEL stuff just leaves a big bad taste in my mouth from what I've seen of it. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Haru to Ashura
 Posts: 617 Location: Termina |
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Please grow a new SENSE OF HUMOR right now, because I think your old one is broken. |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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I have a sense of humor. It just wasn't funny. |
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ACDragonMaster
 Posts: 405 |
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Really now. Not that I agree with the comment that sparked this particular exchange, but at worst it's nothing more than a fan throwing out some overexuberant support for Zac without bashing anyone or otherwise really impacting the argument in the least. Until of course someone gets retentive and decides to drag it kicking and screaming into the discussion as they grasp at straws to support their case. But the comment itself is really inconsiquential and as clearly no one actually took offense it shouldn't make any difference who did or did not find it funny, as it doesn't really matter. *shrugs* On the subject of the comic... I haven't read it myself. I briefly leafed through it at the store the other day, but didn't have time to take a closer look. Some of the artwork does look great, yes, but frankly I know a lot of internet artists who can do wonderful artwork at least as good as those drawings. I know very few, however, who can actually do good sequential art. Being able to draw well alone ain't gonna cut it, frankly, you have to be able to draw very consistantly, you have to be able to handle drawing characters at countless angles and different poses, you have to do backgrounds, dynamic scenes, panel layout, and so on. And this doesn't even bring into account the story side of it. Telling a good story is harder than it looks, and if you don't believe me then just take a quick look around fanfiction.net for proof of this. Telling a good story that's both visual and text combined is even more difficult, because both elements have to be integrated with each other, as well as properly paced and all that. And simply having a great story idea or concept isn't enough. Being a bit of a webcomic fan, I have seen many, many webcomics that have wonderful ideas and premises out there, but very very few that actually succeed in pulling them off. On the issue of humor, one-shot humor isn't the same as integrating humor within a story. The same as the way standalone pieces of artwork aren't the same as a complex of sequential illustrations. And this applies to drama, action, and everything else. Personally I thought the review came across just a touch harsher than necessary- it's possible to be critical without sounding mean, but it's probably pretty truthful despite that. And I can understand the frustration of the fact that a lot of these English manga-style comics are just sub-par in quality and how that can make one tend to be a little harsher in that regard. Heck, the only stuff I've bought has been Dramacon (the only one that seems to be universally agreed upon as "good"), Van Von Hunter (because gratuitous fantasy humor/parody amuses me), MegaTokyo (which I've been following for years), and compilations like Otakon's Otazine for sake of sampling various things and getting an idea of what's out there (and there really was only one in there I felt was good out of the bunch, at that). I can hear people arguing that this in a way is a "new" industry, of drawing manga-style comics by American artists, except that comics isn't a new industry in America I don't really see why we should have to hold comic artists who happen to draw in a manga style to a lower standard than any other comic artist already out there. |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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It has nothing to do with Bizenghast, how would that be a straw to grasp at to support my case? I'd rested my case. I really didn't have anything else to say on the subject. The "god" comment was just something else that irked me. If something bothers me, I feel it's best to comment on it, I really don't care if it bothers anyone else.
I disagree, the art was...interesting, but the story was nothing special. |
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ACDragonMaster
Posts: 405 |
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I think it's worth pointing out, however, that the original comment was "god of ANN". Which really doesn't mean much of anything, other than implying that he lords over this one particular website. Which I fail to see how it's bothersome to anyone unless they're a) other site staff who don't like that implication or b) have a bone to pick with him. Besides, it IS trivial, even if it's off-topic it was just something said once as a joke and making a fuss over such things generally only hurts one's case.
Yes, I only said it seems to be universal, as in even people who're typically very critical of such things have said that it's well-done. The art was the artist's own style, in the same general style of Japanese comics. Essentially, no different from any given Japanese artist who also has their own particular variation on the typical style. On the more technical side, while I did note some flaws with proportions or angles every now and then, only one in the entire book ever stood out to me and otherwise the art never interfered with the reading. The art is consistant throughout the entire book, the page layouts are very condusive to the telling of the story (they aren't jarring or slapped together, at least), and generally speaking it does well on those technical points. Whether or not the art style is to any one person's particular tastes isn't the issue. The same goes for the Bizenghast review- Zac and others feel that technically speaking the artwork is subpar, and so rate it as such. Story? Of course Dramacon is yet another relatively fluffy romance. Which, if you're not a fan of the genre, probably won't be anything remarkable in the least. But one could say the same thing about action, horror, drama, humor... Dramacon does apparently tell its story well, however, judging from peoples' reactions, regardless of whether it's a style of story that's been done before. Was I able to see a lot of tings coming way before they happened? Sure, but I still enjoyed reading to see just how they played out. Oh, and for the record, I generally don't like shoujo-y romance stuff, my preferred reading is the likes of what comes out of the pages of Jump and Gangan. And to make this a relevent point, we can apply the same principles here to Bizenghast. Does Bizenghast tell its story well, regardless of originality? I've seen stories with wonderfully original ideas that were horrible because they were told poorly, and stories that were perfectly predictable that I loved because they were told well. So where does Bizenghast fall? I haven't read it, so I can't really say myself. The review however gives the impression that the story is not anything particularly original, however, and on top of that is told poorly. While I might suspect Zac of exaggerating it a bit, I doubt that he'd rant so much if there were absolutely no reason for it. And as I said in my previous post, sequential art is entirely different from just drawing single images. No one in this thread is denying that the artist is a good artist, the question is simply whether she's capable of sequential art. It isn't a question of even liking her art or not, as I made the point of explaining the notion of rating artwork on technical merits rather than artist's personal style alone. The whole argument here is not, as you so presumptuously claim, a matter of "liking" the art or not, it's an argument of whether the technical merits relevent to sequential art are there or not. |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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I like romance, I just thought the story in this case was crap.
Which is part of my issue with the review. I thought it was fairly original, and told fairly well. Waits for someone with a degree in english to chime in
Oh, I wouldn't say that.
Until this thread I'd never heard of anyone reviewing a book based on it's technical aspects. (Well, not for an anime website anyways.) Every other review I've ever read can be boiled down to one thing: Whether the reviewer liked it or not. I'm sure there's some books that have the technical aspects down perfect, but still get low reviews because, well, they're crap. I just get the impression that some people feel they are much more then a reviewer for an anime website.
Yes it is. It's a review. All he's doing is giving his thoughts on the book. He's not going into deep analytical discussion of the book, or teaching a class, it's just his opinion. |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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What reviews have you been reading? Apparently, not the ones here at ANN. Reviews are NOT supposed to be based purely on whether or not the reviewer likes something. A good reviewer looks past his/her own opinions to state things as objectively as possible. It may not be possible to be purely objective, but good reviewers try to get as close to it as possible. And I feel that the reviewers here tend to try to objective
While reviews are going to contain opinions, that does not neccesarily exlude facts or objective observations. |
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