×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Virginia Man Gets 20 Years for Anime Child Porn


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pleroma



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Eromanga island
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:45 pm Reply with quote
ROFL

---+-O <= 17
---+-O <= 17

^ Teh sexor

OMG JAIL!


(sorry, couldn't resist)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fxg97873



Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 211
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:11 pm Reply with quote
Maybe we can all show up in front of Congress and have a mass impromptu doujinshi session.Smile

I like to see them try to arrest all of us (not that I wouldn't put it past them).Confused

mk2000
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
prime_pm



Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 2338
Location: Your Mother's Bedroom
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:53 pm Reply with quote
That guy makes me sick!

I mean, using the company's computer for his own personal interests. It's not right for the company, dammit!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15336
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:53 pm Reply with quote
fxg: Apparently, they can arrest you for wearing a shirt asking the President how many people have to die for a war.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
MiwaSatoshi
Old Regular


Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 81
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:23 am Reply with quote
To toss your argument back at you, GATSU:

Yes, because I think pedophilia is wrong, then obviously Bush is right. That is a load of illogical horse-hooey, and you know it. Those issues are totally unrelated, Abu Ghraib and Iraq have nothing to do with this thread, and bringing it up at all is quite evidently intellectually dishonest, just like comparing pedophilia to consensual adult behavior is easily questionable when looked at from psychological and developmental standpoints (and therefore equating pedophilia with civil rights issues is suspect).

If no one were getting hurt, that'd be one thing, but my wife works in Child Protective Services, and trust me, child pornography and pedophilia are NOT victimless crimes whatsoever. But then, it seems the vast majority of people here who defend pedophilia (and lolicon for that matter) are in no position to be having children of their own anyway.

For that matter, having single fanboys talk about their "right" to sexualize little girls is a bit like having celibate folks decide policy on family planning ... Smile

That being said:

a) I think it's silly that lolicon doujinshi should be legislated against because we have worse problems, like
b) REAL child porn addicts like repeat offender Dwight Whorley, who should NOT be a cause celebre for lolicon defenders because lolicon was NOT the primary reason for his conviction, though I must say that possession of lolicon is a damn stupid thing if you're trying to beat a child porn rap!
c) or, y'know, Abu Ghraib, Dubya Shrub, etc etc ad nauseam.

I agree, this thread is officially dead, considering we're now talking about the legality of t-shirt slogans instead of, y'know, the facts and context of Mr. Whorley's case.

Again, Virginia is not exactly famed for its progressive legal structure -- if a lolicon-only conviction were to occur in California, then I too would get out the rallying flag, not because I like lolicon, but it alone should not be considered illegal. But one tangential (and possibly exaggerated) reference to "anime" does not a precedent make, and again, if someone into lolicon gets convicted of possession of real child porn, that's just plain indefensible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Abarenbo Shogun



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 1573
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:17 am Reply with quote
I think the question to ask is, does Lolicon and all associated material related to it in the Anime and Manga fandom stand up to the Miller Test?

Kinda a brief summary from Wikipedia:

Quote:

The Miller test was developed in the 1973 case Miller v. California. It has three parts:

* Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
* Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law,
* Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

The third condition is also known as the SLAPS test. The work is considered obscene only if all three conditions are satisfied.

For legal scholars, several issues are important. One is that the test allows for community standards rather than a national standard. What offends the average person in Tulsa, Oklahoma may differ from what offends the average person in San Francisco. The relevant community, however, is not defined.

Another important issue is that Miller asks for an interpretation of what the "average" person finds offensive, rather than what the more sensitive persons in the community are offended by, as obscenity was defined by the previous test, the Hicklin test, stemming from the English precedent.

Because it allows for community standards and demands "serious" value, some worried that this test would make it easier to suppress speech and expression. They pointed out that it replaced a stricter test asking whether the speech or expression was "utterly without redeeming social value"--a much tougher standard than "serious" value. As used, however, the test generally makes it difficult to outlaw any form of expression. Even pornography, with the exception of child pornography, is argued to have some artistic or literary value.

Some critics of obscenity law argue that the existence of Miller proves that federal obscenity laws are in fact not defined, and thus unenforceable and legally dubious.


Frankly, as much as all of would like to be armchair lawyers, I think i'll leave this one to the real Lawyers/Paralegals/Law Students.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:45 pm Reply with quote
MiwaSatoshi wrote:


If no one were getting hurt, that'd be one thing, but my wife works in Child Protective Services, and trust me, child pornography and pedophilia are NOT victimless crimes whatsoever.



My dictionary defines pedophilia as the preference for child as sexual partners. So what, are we arresting people for thought crime now?

MiwaSatoshi wrote:


b) REAL child porn addicts like repeat offender Dwight Whorley, who should NOT be a cause celebre for lolicon defenders because lolicon was NOT the primary reason for his conviction, though I must say that possession of lolicon is a damn stupid thing if you're trying to beat a child porn rap!


Not true, sadly. He was convicted on the 1466A violation for the lolicon image. In addition, he was nabbed on a whole bunch of regular child porn charges. However, the lolicon was the reason for the arrest.

More to the point, most folks here are not to fond of the persident this sets. They could have charged him solely on the child porn and put him away forever, but instead they charge with both. Had they not had the child porn to back up the 1466A charge, they may not have been able to score a conviction.

MiwaSatoshi wrote:

Again, Virginia is not exactly famed for its progressive legal structure


PROTECT and 1466A are federal law, this wasn't tried in state court.

MiwaSatoshi wrote:

But one tangential (and possibly exaggerated) reference to "anime" does not a precedent make, and again, if someone into lolicon gets convicted of possession of real child porn, that's just plain indefensible.


Only until the an adminstration decides to get real tough on child porn and rounds up all the lolicon fans. With enough convictions under the FBIs belt for 1466A charges, the lolicon fans would be falling over themselves to plead out...

Abarenbo Shogun wrote:

Frankly, as much as all of would like to be armchair lawyers, I think i'll leave this one to the real Lawyers/Paralegals/Law Students.


Please note that 1466A does not require the work be proven obscene to get a conviction, on that it fails the SLAPS test. And if you think you can find a expert that is willing to go on record supporting lolicon's serious artistic merits, I've got some beachfront land in Arizona to sell you.

Read 1466A, it isn't long, and isn't too legalistic, you don't have to be a lawyer to understand its intent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pleroma



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Eromanga island
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:17 pm Reply with quote
Regardless of the intent of the law, while it is very easy to convict a criminal with a child abuse record and actual CP in his possesion, I HIGHLY doubt any jury would ever convict on drawings alone. The authorities know this just as well, and merely use the act as extra legal weight to get the people they want off the streets convicted.

The FBI would never waste resources hunting down lolicons because the conviction rate would be rediculously low. They will however have, unfortunately, no qualms about including it in the legal proceeding to put away more serious offenders.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:17 pm Reply with quote
Pleroma wrote:

The FBI would never waste resources hunting down lolicons because the conviction rate would be rediculously low. They will however have, unfortunately, no qualms about including it in the legal proceeding to put away more serious offenders.


Why not? If even one person on the jury is a parent, I can't imagine a verdict of not guilty. So, at worst they get a hung jury and are forced to retry. The Prosecutor will paint the picture that the lolicon fan is a bomb just waiting to go off and the who is going to speak out in the defense of images that depict child abuse?

Will this happen tomorrow? Not likely, but if the percived amount of child molestation occuring continues to climb, it will eventually.

All that aside, I find the argument "Don't worry about that wacky law, no one will ever enforce it" to be mildly unsettling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Abarenbo Shogun



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 1573
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:47 pm Reply with quote
burzmali wrote:

The Prosecutor will paint the picture that the lolicon fan is a bomb just waiting to go off and the who is going to speak out in the defense of images that depict child abuse?


Oh, I can think of several NGO's off the top of my head. Little something called Free Speech and gateway to bigger things that result in Doublethink, thought police, and squelching of First Amendment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MiwaSatoshi
Old Regular


Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 81
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:54 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Had they not had the child porn to back up the 1466A charge, they may not have been able to score a conviction.


I totally agree with you there. This is, however, precisely why the Whorley case is NOT the litmus test the anime community is looking for. You need to find a case where the person is charged with lolicon under 1466A, with NO OTHER EVIDENCE OF CHILD PORN ACTIVITY, then, yes, by all means sic the CBLDF on them. But as long as actual child porn is involved, then I doubt any sane individual, fannish or not, is going to want to touch the case with a 15-foot-pole.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Pleroma



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Eromanga island
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Why not? If even one person on the jury is a parent, I can't imagine a verdict of not guilty. So, at worst they get a hung jury and are forced to retry. The Prosecutor will paint the picture that the lolicon fan is a bomb just waiting to go off and the who is going to speak out in the defense of images that depict child abuse?

Will this happen tomorrow? Not likely, but if the percived amount of child molestation occuring continues to climb, it will eventually.

All that aside, I find the argument "Don't worry about that wacky law, no one will ever enforce it" to be mildly unsettling.


Jury selection works both ways and a mistrial is not in the interest of law enforcement as that just means more wasted resources for a second trial. Mounting a defense should the accused have no record would be exceptionally easy for any competent attorney. I would also like to think that plenty of parents are not so blind as to fail to see this. Dumb reactionary soccer moms may be common, but many reasonable parents must exist as well if the next generation is to have any future.

I am not saying this is somethign that should be ignored, but merely stating that I personally doubt that we will be seeing such blatant "thought police" cases anytime soon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:01 pm Reply with quote
Pleroma wrote:

I am not saying this is somethign that should be ignored, but merely stating that I personally doubt that we will be seeing such blatant "thought police" cases anytime soon.


Baby steps, first you get a conviction on 1466A where the defendant has both lolicon and child porn and a record. Then you do it again to a new defendant without a record. Then you forego the child porn and convict the third defendant solely on the lolicon material.

Hey, I'm not trying to be alarmist but I can read 1466A and it clearly states the lolicon is illegal until is has serious literary, artisitic, political or scientific merit. I really doubt that anyone could convince a jury that a doujinshi of Ash and Misty in flagrante delicto passes that test.

Also, "by anytime soon" I hope you mean "at least until an American Miyazaki turns up" ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shadow_guyver



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:34 pm Reply with quote
Well that's the beauty of the American legal system. You don't have to convince a jury. They just exist to determine if you're guilty of a crime. If you want to do something about a law you believe violates the Constitution, you need to convince the judge.

Now, the judge in the actual trial probably won't do anything about a law, but that's why we have Appellate courts and Supreme courts. Often the best way to get rid of a law is to be convicted of it first. Of course the problem with this method is that it relies on judges, over whom you have little or no control.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:45 pm Reply with quote
shadow_guyver wrote:
Often the best way to get rid of a law is to be convicted of it first.


Doubt you'll find any volunteers, given the life expectancy of anyone convicted of a crime against children in prison..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group