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INTEREST: Japanese Communist Party Claims No Contradiction In Opposing Regulation of Anime, Manga


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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3461
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:56 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
A little context here might help: The Japanese Communist Party holds twelve of the 465 seats in the lower house. The LDP has 278.

Japan has partial proportional voting system*, so even they get some representation.

*289 seats are chosen in 'single seat' voting, eg same as in US winner takes all, for the other 176 seats, in the, in Europe much more common, proportional system, voters vote for party and seats are based on the percentage votes received.
(2017 specifically, 2014 election for example had 475 seats)
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liatris



Joined: 28 May 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:03 pm Reply with quote
I don't think anyone in this comment section understands the flow of the discussion on this matter. Is there anyone who understands it properly?
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FromThePale



Joined: 26 Oct 2021
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:29 am Reply with quote
All I know is that the JCP are pushing forward a claim that doesn't have a shred of evidence supporting it. They're even less worthy of support than usual, even IF they claim to be against censorship.
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monsieurb1982





PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:35 am Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
monsieurb1982 wrote:
So most of anime could send you to jail if someone have the money and energy to sue you. Or at least it's to be decided by the supreme court. I live in the most loved country of the world. It's called Canada.


Let's correct some of these statements:
1 - Most anime is not pornographic, possession of Naruto, One Piece, Ghost in the Shell, Miss Kobayashi, Demon Slayer, Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid, Love Live, etc. would never get you sent to jail in Canada. In fact, neither would possession of Kare Kano, Redo Of Healer, Domestic Girlfriend, Koi Kaze, Kodomo no Jikan, or Oreimo. But yes, the original uncensored version of Kite could put you in Jail in Canada.
2 - While VCP is more heavily regulated in Canada, it's worth noting that our laws regarding "private use" child porn, as well as age of consent, are significantly less restrictive than in the United States.
3 - You can't go to jail as the result of a lawsuit, and you can't sue someone for a crime. Criminal law and civil law are entirely different things. So no amount of budget on the part of a plaintiff will ever result in a guilty verdict.

I agree that the Hansel et Gretel case is deeply troubling. The Judge came to the right decision IMHO, but it never should have made it to court. What weighed heavily in the author's & publisher's favor was the fact that the novel was "literature" and not written to elicit sexual arousal.

Quote:
Now, the man is free because what he wrote against sex with people under 18. But I always wonder if it was a consensual sex act between two teens, what would happen? For example, in the Ayashi no Ceres opening, where you see a girl making love in an artistic way... not pornographic... how do the canadian law see that?


The answer to that lies partially in whether or not the situation is described explicitly. The Ayashi no Ceres opening isn't explicit. The Hansel et Gretel depiction was explicit, which is why he was charged.

Had the exact same event been described, in the same graphic manner, in a book written for sexual arousal (ie: Pornographic in nature), I suspect the author might have been found guilty.

-t


Hi Tempest, thanks for adding more elements for the discussion.

Sorry about the words I used. I said "Sue" because of my imperfect english. but now that you used the right words in your third point. French is my primary language by the way.

That said, about the VCP, the possession and even the access of child porn (so anime and manga too) can lead people to jail. That apply to streaming services and manga scanlations (official or not) too.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-163.1.html

So the private possession is forbidden here.If you strictly apply the law, if you possess an illegal porn manga, you can go to jail to both access (because you downloaded it) and possession (if you kept it).

Also, you're right, the Hansel and Gretel case should never have made it to the court. But it did. I think that a couple of months of jail is nothing compared to how the author and the editor suffered, leading them almost to suicide. And also employes loses their job, and a company ceased to exists. So even if they didn't go to jail, their life were broken and nothing can prevent it to happen again to another author or artist. There is no consequence for people who allowed the trial, and no compensation for the people who suffered. And when something like that is possible, there is someting wrong with the law or at least with how the justice system works.

All people working in the police or in the courts are human. So when there are a law that target specific people, that can always lead to that kind of situation. I know how it's written in the paper it's not the case, but in the real world, it is. What happened with Hansel and Gretel book is the proof of what I am saying. And if it happens with a small passage in a book, there are nothing that can prevent it to happen with an ecchi anime (even not explicit), or a non pornographic manga about teen sex. We can't say anymore this will not happen because that should not happen, because... well, it already happened. Even if the law say it's not illegal, that doesn't matter anymore. It always need people to interpret the law and sometime, that can lead to a trial... and broken lives. It matters only a little that they don't go to jail compared of what they must endure before. I would even say that would be less suffering to go one month or two in jail secretly that being exposed to all the medias and losing your job and company because of the money it take you to pay a lawler.

That's why I think making a law targeting specific people can always lead to something like this. Unless if in the law you make people accountable for the trouble they cause to innocent people they send in court, and make high compensation mandatory. Or unless you just keep the fictional works out of the law. If we don't change anything in the law, one way or another, that situation could just happen again and again.


Last edited by monsieurb1982 on Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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monsieurb1982





PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:45 am Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
monsieurb1982 wrote:
Japan is such an unique country. Even the far left, the communist party, prefer to discuss and respect the freedom of speech.


Karl Marx was very much in favor of free speech. He said that censorship was instituted by the bourgeois elite and is a tool of the powerful to oppress the powerless[1]. As I stated earlier, global communist parties tend to be Marxist in nature, not Maoist or Stalinist.

The CPC's repression of freedom of expression comes largely from the fact that they are an authoritarian regime, not from the fact that they are communist. Right wing authoritarians aren't particularly big on freedom of speech either.

So no, there's nothing ironic, or uniquely Japanese about the JCP's support of freedom of speech. It's also worth noting that Japan's citizen's are among the least supportive of freedom of speech in the world[2] despite the fact that their constitution firmly entrenches freedom of speech and press [3] and Freedom House reports that Japan is about as "free" as the United States[4].

1: http://humanityjournal.org/blog/karl-marxs-theory-of-free-speech-part-1/
2: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-country-comparison/
3:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Japan#Freedom_of_speech_and_of_the_press
4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_(report)


A little off topic. Thanks for the info. I know about the communism and Karl Marx. When I was young, I even participated in some left political parties, even financially. But what matters for me now is only how communism is in the real world, not on the paper. For now, I'm not convinced it leads to a world that respect individual rights. But you're right, we could say the same thing about right autoritharian regime, or even religious right-wing political parties. That's why now, I'm not a lot interested about the right or the left. The only thing that matters is to what it leads, and how the political parties respect individual rights, and even more the minority individual rights againt majority group and even the state. It doesn't matter for me if it's the right or the left...

And we are talking about anime and manga here, but for me it's not the only thing that matters. That can be the freedom of speech of people who don't think like me, the gay's rights, etc. For me, all of that is important and that's why I'm here in that topic. I think all people should care about other people's rights when someone challenge it, because one day or another, it will be their rights and if they didn't supported other people, they will not be supported when it will happens. They will be alone...
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Hoppy800



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
Posts: 3331
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:04 am Reply with quote
Thankfully the current LDP in power is not pro censorship of fiction with at least one member of the cabinet (that I know of) confirming that the party is committed to protecting expression in anime, manga, LNs, etc.
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Albyher0



Joined: 23 Oct 2021
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:55 am Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
Albyher0 wrote:
This whole thing literally caused the red scare again, I saw every Mangaka, free speech orgs and countless politicians(ishin, CDP and LDP) just demolishing the JCP for this and it was trending harder than the elections. Even some I always assumed pretty liberal(Oowara was liking resist commies stuff) The big issue is the JCP dont want to pass laws to regulate this content, but they want to push to change social consensus regarding this stuff being bad(it arguably is) so people stop wanting to profit from it and create it.


If you mean Sumito Oowara then that's not surprising. He was the mangaka westerners tried to cancel because people found out he followed loli artists. Not a surprise he'd be against such a ban. I don't see how this is a liberal or conservative issue though. Censorship affects everyone and can be used by anyone to suppress ideas they don't like.
Censorship is a real uniting issue for pretty much any creator in Japan.


Yes, this is true. It's more along the lines of jumping instantly to dumb boomer rhetoric as I saw so many mangaka do when they were picking apart the JCP online.

It also now appears several JCP members including the one in the article, Yoshiko Kira(she lead the fight against the original loli ban) have purged all mentions of combating the Youth Healthy Development Ordinance bill in their personal blogs recently which is kicking off this dramafest again.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:57 am Reply with quote
monsieurb1982 wrote:
Sorry about the words I used. I said "Sue" because of my imperfect english. but now that you used the right words in your third point. French is my primary language by the way.
Oui. Je l'avais su. Ce n'est pas trop difficile de reconnaître un autre Québécois.


Quote:
That said, about the VCP, the possession and even the access of child porn (so anime and manga too) can lead people to jail. That apply to streaming services and manga scanlations (official or not) too.
Yes, I've written about VCP many times in my 21 years of anime journalism on this site. I'm very much aware of the Canadian laws. But you said "most anime." That's my biggest issue with your post. You seem to imply that most anime contains child porn, or at least lolicon. That's not true, and a falsehood that we really don't want people believing in. We've spent decades fighting the "all anime is porn" trope, we don't need actual anime fans propagating it.


Quote:
there is someting wrong with the law or at least with how the justice system works.

I agree 100%. This case was a travesty

Quote:
And we are talking about anime and manga here, but for me it's not the only thing that matters. That can be the freedom of speech of people who don't think like me, the gay's rights, etc. For me, all of that is important and that's why I'm here in that topic. I think all people should care about other people's rights when someone challenge it, because one day or another, it will be their rights and if they didn't supported other people, they will not be supported when it will happens. They will be alone...
Also agree 100%


Quote:
But what matters for me now is only how communism is in the real world, not on the paper.
I kinda expected this point, and it's certainly not wrong. But parties like the JCP and other communist parties around the world are working towards the communist ideal. Imagine being dedicated to democracy, you're not going to abandon the term just because there are failed democracies, or countries that call themselves "democratic" when they are anything but. Obviously this isn't an equal comparison, because there are many very successful democracies, while even the most successful communist states are entirely authoritarian and still host significant human rights abuses.

-t
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monsieurb1982





PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:02 pm Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
Yes, I've written about VCP many times in my 21 years of anime journalism on this site. I'm very much aware of the Canadian laws. But you said "most anime." That's my biggest issue with your post. You seem to imply that most anime contains child porn, or at least lolicon. That's not true, and a falsehood that we really don't want people believing in. We've spent decades fighting the "all anime is porn" trope, we don't need actual anime fans propagating it.


Parfait, je comprends! And you do a great job fighting that idea.

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to imply that most anime contains porn. I believe that most of them don't contain porn at all. Like most of the people here including you, I clearly see the difference between art and porn.

I just think that the "porn" definition is sometime going too far. First, because they include the true porn and the hentai porn in the same law, instead of two separated laws. But also because that for some people, fan service, nudity and sex scenes with teens in an anime ar a manga is always child porn (and strangely it's not porn at all when it's in a mainstream movie or tv show with adults).

I fear that some people who are not used to anime, including the ones who write or apply the laws, don't always make the difference between art and porn. And you're right, the "all anime is porn" trope is really bad. And I also fear that some people could do someting to anime or manga like they did in the Hansel or Gretel case, because of how they see anime (with this trope) and also because of how they could interpret the law. So that's why we must fight on all fronts.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:34 pm Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
But parties like the JCP and other communist parties around the world are working towards the communist ideal. Imagine being dedicated to democracy, you're not going to abandon the term just because there are failed democracies, or countries that call themselves "democratic" when they are anything but. Obviously this isn't an equal comparison, because there are many very successful democracies, while even the most successful communist states are entirely authoritarian and still host significant human rights abuses.
But there's a point where the ideal can't be separated from the 100% consequence. If I start lighting people on fire only because I want to make beautiful fire, but for some reason people keep getting burned, it would be weird to try not to judge me by the totally predictable and reliable consequence of my goal. In this context, the irony I was pointing to is that there's a lot more historical evidence that ties communism to evil than that ties "fictional child pornography" to evil.
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Brent Allison



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:28 pm Reply with quote
Does Japan have a pop culture figure equivalent to Elvis in terms of going from young, slender, and hip to older, fatter, and shooting televisions? Because I think such a celebrity should be the mascot for the JCP about now.
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Megiddo



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Hoppy800 wrote:
Thankfully the current LDP in power is not pro censorship of fiction with at least one member of the cabinet (that I know of) confirming that the party is committed to protecting expression in anime, manga, LNs, etc.

I'm not that surprised about the total lack of awareness of Japanese politics, but this quote just makes my skin crawl.

You do know which political party supported the whole "non-existent youth" legislation right?

It was the LDP. Yikes.

Don't be fooled just because a self-proclaimed otaku got elected. The LDP is as conservative as it has ever been.
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BonusStage



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Brent Allison wrote:
Does Japan have a pop culture figure equivalent to Elvis in terms of going from young, slender, and hip to older, fatter, and shooting televisions? Because I think such a celebrity should be the mascot for the JCP about now.


I admit I haven't paid too much attention to this other than what's stumbled upon my feed, but all the Japanese celebrities I follow (mostly mangaka, game directors, artists, etc) that commented on this voiced their opposition to the JCP and haven't really seen any of them voice support for the party. Purely anecdotal, of course.
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Brent Allison



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:56 pm Reply with quote
BonusStage wrote:
I admit I haven't paid too much attention to this other than what's stumbled upon my feed, but all the Japanese celebrities I follow (mostly mangaka, game directors, artists, etc) that commented on this voiced their opposition to the JCP and haven't really seen any of them voice support for the party. Purely anecdotal, of course.


Eh, I wasn't really thinking about the said celebrity's actual opinions. More like an image/feeling of one of them invoking "fat Elvis" in a general sense. Like, "This celebrity was cool, but now they're gross and/or tick me off." But yeah, that's what I heard about the opinions of most people in the industry over there.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:40 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
But there's a point where the ideal can't be separated from the 100% consequence. If I start lighting people on fire only because I want to make beautiful fire, but for some reason people keep getting burned, it would be weird to try not to judge me by the totally predictable and reliable consequence of my goal. In this context, the irony I was pointing to is that there's a lot more historical evidence that ties communism to evil than that ties "fictional child pornography" to evil.


Obviously. But people dedicated to an ideal don't see it that way. This as true of religion as it is of communism. Most religious people won't even acknowledge the harm done under the name of their religion. They still openly identify themselves as followers of said religion despite what was done by others before them. So it's unsurprising that international communists aren't willing to abandon their political beliefs just because some foreigners damaged the "brand." (and of course, some international communists think China is doing a great job -.- )

Anyway, we're getting super OT here.
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