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Last edited by HeeroTX on Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total

Regarding the "anti-social" geek, I think it should be questioned why he/she bothers you. If they're always hitting on other members or making you uncomfortable with their conversations or other things, that's one thing. OTOH, if they make you uncomfortable solely based on appearance or some other aspect. (odor is hazy and IMO difficult to classify, as there's the "I don't bathe" odor, but there is also "can't help genetics" or "need medication" or other weird situations odor) What I'm trying to say is there is "Go away because you are actively annoying everyone here" and there is "Go away because we don't like you" (which can be because you're ugly, or fat, or black, or something else that shouldn't give you license to discriminate).

You don't need to be friendly with or associate with everyone, but if the problems are voluntary, is there an effort made to fix them? But more importantly, while GSFs are very interesting and I find that I agree with the concepts and even lived several of the GSFs, it is short-sighted to just dismiss them because of the general motivations that cause them. I say this because as anime/manga move more mainstream, you ARE more likely to find the same people that drove "geeks" out of other activities for being "out of place".

Zac wrote:

A lot of people believe that Christians in America have no place to complain about how they're portrayed in the media given that they are the vast, vast majority and the most vocal among them are dangerous individuals who don't respect the Constitution.

Before I go off on some rant, I'm going to ask, are you Zac, one of those people. If so, I feel that is incredibly narrow-minded and ignorant, on par with people who say members of a minority CANNOT be racist. If you are NOT one of those people, then I feel you do yourself AND AnimeNewsNetwork a huge disservice by making that implication.

I have no issues separating fiction from reality and have NEVER started a crusade against a given work due to religious sect. I feel SOME works cross the line into blasphemy and I then choose not to watch or follow those. (for reference, I have no issues with Harry Potter and while I don't follow Chrono Crusade, I have read a vol. of the manga and didn't find it offensive, same for Ah My Goddess (which IS a favorite) or Evangelion) Simple. None of those works in question (that I recall) are anime but then, other people are more sensitive than I, or have watched more extreme or controversial shows. But there are several responses on here that are all but DELIBERATELY provocative to people with Christian (be they Catholic or Protestant) beliefs. Or is it now fair game to say that I think all Democrats are thieving, immoral, communist morons who obviously have no grasp of the laws of economics and human nature. And no one who'd identify themselves as a Democrat should have any right to complain because they comprise 40% of the population and some of their most vocal members are dangerous people who don't respect the constitution (if it's not working to their benefit) or the rule of law.

What I find TRULY ironic about Zac's statement above, is it is a BEAUTIFUL depiction of how GSF#1 works. So now the majority can't criticize minority elements that are downright offensive, simply BECAUSE those people are a minority and should be protected. In a macro-sense, how is it any different to say the Christians in the US can't criticize their detractors who ARE being directly offensive, versus the majority members of an anime club can't shun or criticize an actively offensive member? In both cases, the minority member is CHOOSING to offend the majority the only differences are the areas of discussion and the scale.

Ryllharu wrote:

I can definitely see where the shonen haters come from. It isn't so much that a lot of them hate the inundation of casual fans, it's what those fans are watching. A casual fan will watch whatever appears on Adult Swim, or even...4Kids TV saturday morning *shudder*. The hardcore fans have meanwhile been downloading fansubs of more obscure, critically acclaimed series or buying every dvd they can find. The more obscure titles tend to more critically acclaimed, have more mature character and story development, etc.

So when these hardcore fans who watched Code Geass, Bokura Ga Ita, Paradise Kiss, or Ghost in the Shell: SAC see more casual fans gushing about how Bleach and Naruto are the greatest series of all time, you can see how they'd become frustrated. In their minds, these casual fans are watching formulaic series that seem exactly the same to Dragonball or Yu Yu Hakusho with only the names, appearances, and settings changed around.

It's anger that these casual fans are "missing out" on series full of depth and deep character development in addition to some pretty amazing action scenes or great drama.

The only issue I have with shonen haters is those who blanket the entire genre based on Naruto or Bleach, or even on the fans of Naruto or Bleach, and refuse to check out better shonen series like Yakitate!! Japan, Hikaru no Go, Fighting Spirit, or even Eyeshield 21 entirely because it's shonen, much like people blanket all harem anime or any other genre based on a couple of titles.

I dont think the "true otaku" who watches the "deep and thought provoking" shows are any different at the core. I really think it goes both ways. I've seen plenty of "true otaku" who simply gush over and ride whatever show is popular within the fandom at the time instead of looking for shows themselves. I don't see how the "true otaku" are seeing the way, the truth, and the light when they gush over something like Code Gaess or Haruhi Suzumiya when they're just as guilty at ignoring great shows for the more popular shows.

And with more otaku centered anime getting extra seasons, I'm less inclined to buy into the whole "length" argument.

penguintruth wrote:

@ Rant:

How many people do you suspect in the United States (for instance) know much about Shintoism? Now Canada. The UK. I doubt it's a lot.

Yeah, I thought so. Let the Japanese animators sprinkle their shows with Stars of David and have Protestants fight Catholics (lord knows, there have never been any bloody conflicts there, right?). Generally speaking, anime is for the Japanese.

I can't speak for the rest, but there are many show that portray Christianity and it does not bother me; I just find it wierd. It's like a lifeguard watching TV and then saying "that's not how you perform CPR"

So, I do not mostly get offended by anime, my previous posts were mostly how some people on threads bash/insult all Christians due to one specific denomination/group of Christianity. In fact, as I may recall, there was a post in page 1 where he/she accused the religion of having priests that rape children, and that all Christians hatehomosexuals.

(I do recognize there are cases about that, but the news only reports on the most contreversial/negative event and then people tend to view it as a generilazation.)

Leaving aside the rant for the moment, I thought this was a particularly good column this week.

Two things I don't get about the rant:

1) What exactly is the message supposed to be to Western companies? The finger-wagging is supposed to be directed at them, but it doesn't say whether the companies shouldn't license these series at all, or should edit them to remove the offending material (which would effectively render some series unreleasable anyway, and judging by the tempest-in-a-teapot about the FMA edit, would be a terrible idea for any company that wanted to keep their fans)? What's the point of yelling at ADV rather than Daisuke Moriyama? Rants are more effective if they ultimately have a point to them rather than just compaining, and the practical point of this one is elusive..

(The ranter also seems confused about the role of Western companies in the creation of these series: "ADV's Chrno Crusade" and "FUNimation's Trinity Blood" didn't introduce anything into those series that wasn't already there. Why not "Disney's Castle in the Sky" while she's at it?)

2) The ranter claims to understand the role that Christianity plays in Japanese culture (minor), and then attributes motives based on a Western viewpoint to the creators. Specifically in the section on Hellsing: the assumption seems to be that the creator has some pro-Protestant bias ("blatantly bashes one in favor of the other").

Seeing "[obvious] intentional Catholic bashing" in Hellsing (a series she implies she hasn't seen or read, BTW) misses one of the fundamental weirdnesses about Hellsing: It treats England as though it were Japan. This isn't uncommon in anime/manga (they even have some superficial similarities: they're both island nations that like tea), but once you proceed from that assumption the rest of it falls into place. The Queen is treated as though she were the Emperor: a semi-divine treated with the utmost reverence. The Church of England (used interchangably with Protestantism in the series) is treated as much more central to the hearts, minds and daily existence of everybody in the series than the real C of E is.

Looked at from that lens, Hellsing isn't "bashing" the Catholic church; it's presenting it as an antagonist to a C of E/England that bears little resemblance to the real England in the way the characters perceive it. The series isn't being rah-rah Protestantism; it's making false assumptions about the way the characters would feel because they're English. As others have noted, the people working for the Hellsing organization are scarcely lily-white either. And why isn't the vampire vicar from the beginning of the series cited as a negative and inaccurate portayal of Anglicanism? (I'm guessing the ranter is Catholic, since depictions of Catholicism and Catholics are singled out for particular censure. If the issue is depictions of Christianity, then Hellsing is inaccurate in its depictions of all of its branches, so singling out its treatment of Catholicism indicates either bias or incomplete understanding of the series.)

Someone who knows more about Shinto might be able to address this: I've gotten the impressions that anime depictions of nuns were largely driven by assuming that they're like miko. You see series in which nuns-to-be wear their habits before joining an order (as in St. Tail and School Rumble), which makes more sense in the shrine maiden context (where it's often a family duty, and isn't necessarily a lifetime job). Shrine maidens are supposed to be virginal but can leave their duties to get married (while nuns are expected to remain chaste for life) which would be much more consistent with the portrayal the ranter complains about. With this in mind, the depiction of nuns in Japanese media isn't inconsistent with its portrayal of shrine maidens. (The miko in "Haunted Junction" has a massive shouta complex, but I haven't seen anyone complaining that this gives a negative and inaccurate presentation of Shinto...)

Strephon wrote:

Why not "Disney's Castle in the Sky" while she's at it?

I'm not sure what you're asking for here, but just to be snarky ( Anime smile

) "Laputa" IS "Castle in the Sky". (and was mentioned in the rant)

Quote:

Looked at from that lens, Hellsing isn't "bashing" the Catholic church

I realize I'm not the ranter, but *I* look at Hellsing the anime being as blasphemous of "Van Helsing" the terrible movie. (terrible NOT because of it's displays of Catholicism, but terrible for being a terrible movie) Sometimes movies throw in religious trappings to help set the mood and because it fits in the mythos (the cross could repel vampires according to lore, no doubt started by early churches).

I think you make a VERY interesting point of C of E comparison and even more so with nun v. miko. That actually raises an interesting view on the Japanese usage of such things. In MANY cultures (not just Japan) nun garb is a fetish for some people. (it SHOULDN'T be, but it is) but it's interesting to consider that in Japan (and to some foreign anime fans), miko garb is ALSO a fetish. I find it interesting that Japan doesn't really give any special "reverence" to their own religious vestments (miko garb) so I don't think they're (as a rule) being intentionally offensive to Christian vestments (nun garb). I think it's all just clothes to them. I think it's DISRESPECTFUL (to the people, like nuns) to mock people that make such a commitment to religion with their lives, but I don't think it's particularly immoral. On that note, I'm curious about this book and may check it out one day.

http://www.dmpbooks.com/titles.php?n=27&t=65

ikillchicken wrote:

Perhaps Im majorly mistaken but Im fairly certain that that the term Catholicism" and "Christianity" can be used interchangably in this case. Christian refers to all the sects that believe in Christ. ie. both Prodestants and Catholics. You can't use the terms Prodestant and Catholic interchangably becuase of the reasons you described. However both Catholicism and Prodestantism are types of Christianity so you pretty much can use them interchangably here.

Before complaining about people using terms wrong, get them straight... /=

dude your totally right but for some reason its almost impossible to make a catholic admit their Christian i don't know why that is i mean you can make a catholic look up the definition for the word Christian in any dictionary,for example Wiktionary's definition for the word Christian "-An individual who seeks to live his or her life according to the principles and values taught by Jesus Christ" and they will still say their not Christian their Catholic

Thank you, to the ranter. That was a much needed defense of Christian representation in anime.

Concerning the rant and some previous comments made about it:

I find it curious that Hellsing is being held up as an example of an anti-Catholic portrayal and/or as being non-Christian in general. The TV series version in particular actually seemed to me, as a former Christian, to make more effort than most anime series to show people of faith, and is the only anime I can think of which deals with the very real Protestant/Catholic conflicts that still exist to this day (albeit in a completely aggrandized fashion). Amongst those that consider themselves religious, England is still an overwhelmingly Protestant country and it has had its share of Protestant/Catholic bloodshed in its past.

As for the Catholic-bashing part of it, I was always very clear on the point that Paladin Anderson was more than a bit fruit loopy as Catholics go and shouldn't be taken as representative of Catholics in general. The "Christian magic" thing isn't exclusive to Catholics in the TV series version, either.

If we're going to talk about how Christianity is portrayed in anime, I'd be curious to know what conservative Christians think of a series like Witch Hunter Robin, as the title character always seemed to me to be as devoutly and passionately Christian as anyone you'll ever see in an anime series.

Why do Catholics seemed to get picked on more than other Christian denominations in anime? The answer is very simple: it is the most ostentatious version of Christianity, the one that lends itself most clearly to a visual representation of the religion and the one most rooted in tradition and ceremony. Even most devout Christians in the U.S. couldn't tell a Methodist minister from a Baptist preacher just a glance, but almost anyone will know a Catholic nun or priest on sight. Let's face it: to people ignorant of, or indifferent towards, Christianity anywhere in the world, Catholicism is the form of Christianity that they are most readily going to recognize as being specifically Christian.

Really, though, I don't have much patience for Christians complaining about how anime portrays their religion grossly inaccurately. I have played Dungeons and Dragons since the early '80s and have too frequently heard dedicated Christians spin it as a "tool of the Devil" (though admittedly not so much recently) because they're basing their opinions on a few bad apples and don't bother to get their facts straight about it.

Kyokat wrote:

Being an American means you live in America. Being a Christian means you subscribe (or at least say you subscribe) to a certain set of beliefs. Can you see where it might be more tempting to paint all members of a certain denomination with the same brush? I'm not saying it's right, but your comparison is a bit spurious.

Have you been to Canada? We're not all like this, but a lot of my friends seem to be under the impression that the American public is directly responsible for Iraq, and just as... intelligent, careful... as the president. It's a bit frustrating sometimes. Though I suppose the histories of the two countries haven't exactly been harmonious. Again I say- certainly not all Canadians feel this way.

RDespair wrote:

Still, under the umbrella of Christianity, there exists a practically infinite number of different beliefs. Catholics have different beliefs than Protestants which in turn have different beliefs than Mormons which in turn have different beliefs from Jehovah Witnesses...and so on. Then, even in the same sect, you're going to get noticeable differences in beliefs based on the individuals background: their age, nationality, gender, education level, intelligence, devotion, political leanings, personality, etc.

Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in Jesus as God, the son of God, etc., so they don't technically fit under Christianity.

The rant- it always makes me feel uncomfortable when a Christian comes out and says that anything that misrepresents Christanity is wrong. It just feels a little hypocritical. Christians as a whole have a tendency to bash other religions (destroy, actually, but that's another rant)- as a liberal Chrstian, I sometimes meet people in this religion who... don't like my views on history and science.
For a religion based on faith, love, and understanding, we sure can be exclusive. And it's not like there are no other religions that are misinterpreted in anime- look at, say, Matantei Loki Ragnarok. It's not discrimination, it's fiction. Get over it.

zetsuie wrote:

dude your totally right but for some reason its almost impossible to make a catholic admit their Christian

I think that's a matter of who you are talking to. I actually find the reverse to be more common (Protestants who take great pains to highlight the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism). I know many Catholics who have no issues noting themselves as "Christian". I think an exception SHOULD be noted tho. Do you come to that discussion as an atheist? I think most Catholics would reject the notion that Catholic=Intolerant Bigot, which is how many non-Christians choose to paint the religion. That's not to say there aren't any people that fit that description, but that would be why they try to distance themselves from your depiction as such.

zetsuie wrote:

ikillchicken wrote:

Perhaps Im majorly mistaken but Im fairly certain that that the term Catholicism" and "Christianity" can be used interchangably in this case. Christian refers to all the sects that believe in Christ. ie. both Prodestants and Catholics. You can't use the terms Prodestant and Catholic interchangably becuase of the reasons you described. However both Catholicism and Prodestantism are types of Christianity so you pretty much can use them interchangably here.

Before complaining about people using terms wrong, get them straight... /=

dude your totally right but for some reason its almost impossible to make a catholic admit their Christian i don't know why that is i mean you can make a catholic look up the definition for the word Christian in any dictionary,for example Wiktionary's definition for the word Christian "-An individual who seeks to live his or her life according to the principles and values taught by Jesus Christ" and they will still say their not Christian their Catholic

Let me give you an example why Catholics prefer to be recognized by denomination rather than being bunched up as christians in certain events:

There are muslim terrorists (which is a group is Islam) who use the Qu'ran to promote viuolence. Suddenly, pple tend to believe that all muslims have these radical, terrorists views but there are many denominations (I think Suni) that share the main belief of Allah and Mohammed yet do not share these same radical beliefs. That's why pple tend tend to be recognized by different denomination especially when the news reports on the most extremist, dangerous religious groups.

HeeroTX wrote:

zetsuie wrote:

dude your totally right but for some reason its almost impossible to make a catholic admit their Christian

I think that's a matter of who you are talking to. I actually find the reverse to be more common (Protestants who take great pains to highlight the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism). I know many Catholics who have no issues noting themselves as "Christian". I think an exception SHOULD be noted tho. Do you come to that discussion as an atheist? I think most Catholics would reject the notion that Catholic=Intolerant Bigot, which is how many non-Christians choose to paint the religion. That's not to say there aren't any people that fit that description, but that would be why they try to distance themselves from your depiction as such.

well im going on personal experience in which my Catholic friend asked her priest if Catholics are Christians and he told her no Catholics are just Catholic

ichiro3923 wrote:

Let me give you an example why Catholics prefer to be recognized by denomination rather than being bunched up as christians in certain events:

There are muslim terrorists (which is a group is Islam) who use the Qu'ran to promote viuolence. Suddenly, pple tend to believe that all muslims have these radical, terrorists views but there are many denominations (I think Suni) that share the main belief of Allah and Mohammed yet do not share these same radical beliefs. That's why pple tend tend to be recognized by different denomination especially when the news reports on the most extremist, dangerous religious groups.

so that makes it ok for Catholics to completely ignore the definition of the word Christian

I think pretty much everything I would say about the rant has already been said (I'm on the 'it's fiction, lighten up' side), so I'll stick to the flake.

While this week's flake was (if not an intentional bait flake) monumentally stupid, I think the main problem people have with this issue, both for and against the viewpoint displayed by the flake, is the fact that the word 'quality' is often used, while people really mean 'value'. The quality of fansubs being better than that of commercial DVDs is debatable, but the value of fansubs is, for all intents and purpose, unmatchable, if you were to define value as quality/cost. While the quality of a fansub might not be perfect, or even all that good, the fact that the cost involved is considered as infinitesimally small (consisting of downloading time and minimal storage space), the value of the fansub is considered arbitrarily large. On the other hand, regardless of how good a commercial release is, the fixed monetary cost limits the value you can obtain. As such, we also tend to place higher expectations on the quality of commercial releases, both because they are getting paid to do it (unlike most fansubbers), and because we want to maximize the value we receive.

And yes, I buy a lot of DVDs, and am rabid about special/limited editions. Heck, I purchased volumes 2-end of two series in RightStuf's current sale, then went to Amazon to get Vol 1+box because it wasn't included in the sale items (although the normal volume 1 was) -_-

zetsuie wrote:

HeeroTX wrote:

zetsuie wrote:

dude your totally right but for some reason its almost impossible to make a catholic admit their Christian

I think that's a matter of who you are talking to. I actually find the reverse to be more common (Protestants who take great pains to highlight the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism). I know many Catholics who have no issues noting themselves as "Christian". I think an exception SHOULD be noted tho. Do you come to that discussion as an atheist? I think most Catholics would reject the notion that Catholic=Intolerant Bigot, which is how many non-Christians choose to paint the religion. That's not to say there aren't any people that fit that description, but that would be why they try to distance themselves from your depiction as such.

well im going on personal experience in which my Catholic friend asked her priest if Catholics are Christians and he told her no Catholics are just Catholic

ichiro3923 wrote:

Let me give you an example why Catholics prefer to be recognized by denomination rather than being bunched up as christians in certain events:

There are muslim terrorists (which is a group is Islam) who use the Qu'ran to promote viuolence. Suddenly, pple tend to believe that all muslims have these radical, terrorists views but there are many denominations (I think Suni) that share the main belief of Allah and Mohammed yet do not share these same radical beliefs. That's why pple tend tend to be recognized by different denomination especially when the news reports on the most extremist, dangerous religious groups.

so that makes it ok for Catholics to completely ignore the definition of the word Christian

No, it just means that the term Christian should not be used under certain context. When you want to refer to all Christain denominations as group who believe in God and Jesus, then feel free to use the word Christian; when people assume that all Christian's are evil because of one small extremists group's actions and beliefs, then it is unfair to hold the rest of the denominations responsible for that extremist group's actions/beliefs.

There are many denominations, and may have different beliefs because of the way they interpret the Bible. Some believe the Bible literally (word for word) while some understand that not everything in the Bible should be taken literally and sometimes view it as a metaphorical representation.

@shonen-series-person: Although I like shonen anime, I can understand the hate. To what Zac said, I would add that shonen series tend to be very formulaic. Once you've seen a few from start to finish, you'll start to notice all of the cliche'd characters and the endless cycle of "I'm the best! Oh snap, that guy's better! I'll go train until my power is OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!! Then I'll fight the guy for 10 episodes. In the end, right when I'm about to be defeated, I'll pull out my secret super move and win the day!" This bothers some people. I'm mildly annoyed by it, but am drawn to shows like Naruto and Bleach nonetheless.

@Doritos-creep-person: What Zac says is true, but I have something to add. The people who are simply tolerating him think they're doing him a favor, but they're not. Some people are just rough around the edges. They don't understand how others see them, and haven't learned the social lessons they need to in order to be socially amicable. They're never going to learn those lessons if people simply tolerate them.

Insulting them won't help, either. Insults put people on the defensive, and defensive people don't analyze what others are saying in order to find ways to improve themselves. They just think you're being mean.

What the 'tolerance' people don't realize is that honesty != insult. If you make a point to tell the 'Doritos' people exactly how you feel and why you find their behavior offensive, it's far more likely to be productive in the end. Their feelings will probably still be hurt, but rational people should appreciate the honesty and use the information to better themselves. That way, you're more likely to help them, less likely to create enemies, and you don't have to hang out with them.

That said, I would add that some of my best friends are people who I couldn't stand at first, and who clung to me because I was too nice to tell them to go away. Once I got to know them, I found out that they were really good people and was so happy I hadn't brushed them off. Good friends are priceless, and I'd be diminished without certain 'Doritos' people in my life.

@ranter: I'm a non-denominational Christian and my wife's Catholic, so believe me when I say that I understand your point. However, there are two things you need to do - develop a thick skin and develop a sense of humor.

When someone actually means to insult you, the worst thing you can do is let it get to you. That's what they want. I admit I'm a little saddened when people bash religion. It's a part of who I am and it hurts when people hate on something that's such a big part of my life. Even so, there are too many genuinely upsetting things in life already. It's not worth it to let yourself be rattled by ignorant, hateful people.

Most of the time (especially in anime, I think) people don't mean genuine offense. They're either joking, or they're ignorant and just want to use Judeo-Christian themes to acheive a particular appearance. When it's the former, laugh, and when it's the latter, pity them for their ignorance. In Chrono Crusade and Trinity Blood, the jokes and the use of Catholic imagery are juvenile. To take offense would be to attribute far more substance to those shows than is actually present. Hellsing, on the other hand, is stinking hilarious. It's far too over-the-top to take seriously. Nobody anywhere would ever read Hellsing and actually worry that London might be overrun by a horde of Catholic KKK knight zealots. Hellsing is just meant to be extreme in every way, and to take offense would be pointless.

Christianity is huge, and popular media references huge phenomenon, often inaccurately or satirically. Also, since it's huge, it inevitably contains a few zealots that go around pissing everybody off. So in retaliation, people take potshots at Christianity as a whole. Such is reality, and the sooner you get used to it, the better.

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