Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Yay, a tie! That is pretty much perfect for that round overall. Should be interesting to see what happens next round when Saber gets thrown into the mix (and yes, there will be a 3-way battle going on in Group D next week).
This week's voting is interesting because I've known for awhile who I would vote for in Group A but was fairly unsure about Group B. I am happy with my choices for the moment, but there's a possibility that I could change my mind for those two match-ups. Group A-23 Fakir, Princess Tutu I voted against Sawako last time and she's up against an even better character this time. From what I have seen of Kimi ni Todoke, I do agree with what has been said about her development stalling because the plot requires it and the frustration this caused is one of the things that kept me from getting into the series. With Fakir, his development is held off for awhile but once it starts, it really gets rolling and the more people have mentioned things he does, the more I realize just how strong a contender he is. He's definitely the best contender in Group A by a fair amount. Group A-24 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop I haven't been Daikichi's biggest support here, since I did vote against him last round and did in fact vote for Taichi. But Clare sounded like a very strong choice and I wasn't overly impressed by Taichi's competition (I can't even remember who it was off-hand). So now that we have the two of them up against each other, well, I'm much more impressed by Daikichi. Neither of them stand a chance in the next round though 
-------------------------------------------------- Group B-23 Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! Going to go with Kyoko here because I'm passingly familiar with both (seen/read a bit of Skip Beat! and watched Spirited Away once) and she's the character who left a greater impression on me. Even if the anime leaves her story ultimately unfinished, I think she changes more. Group B-24 Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms It sounds as though this match-up is very close. And since I can't really find a way to objectively differentiate, I'm going to go with which type of development I subjectively think I would enjoy more. So Shoukei gets it because her development interests me most. Last edited by marie-antoinette on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Group A-23
Fakir, Princess Tutu No contest IMO. Fakir is the strongest nominee from his series and easily the stronger of this matchup. Group A-24 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Mostly echoing marie-antoinette here. Not sure either of these guys have much chance going forward, but I think Daikichi is the stronger of the two. -------------------------------------------------- Group B-23 Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! A bit ambivalent on this matchup, honestly. Going with Kyoko for now based on previous arguments, but may change. Chihiro's not a lame duck here, but she doesn't strike me as greatly improved as much as finding some untapped tenacity that had been there. Group B-24 Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms Pretty much what Aylinn said here. Scar's a good candidate, he just wasn't given the kind of focus that Shoukei had. Considering they both have pretty significant turnarounds in their outlook, I consider them on fairly equal ground in that regard, so I'll take Shoukei's more focused character study over Scar's mostly-effective backstory as a tiebreaker. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18247 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Taichi should be judged only on content up through the end of the Fall season, I think, as that's what his nomination was based on.
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I think this should work. My router was giving me trouble today. Anyway, results!
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rheiders
 Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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Group A-23
Fakir, Princess Tutu Fakir is probably in my top two for the entire tournament. Introducing the show to my friends in recent weeks has just reminded me how amazing his improvement really is. Group A-24 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Taichi's improvement is there, and it's touching and well-written enough, but he doesn't stand out that much this far into the tournament. There's also the fact that his improvement has stagnated a bit in recent episodes. Mind, I haven't watched the most recent episode yet, but it sounds like we're not counting that anyway. I'm pretty sure I voted for him last round (I think...), but I recall it being largely because he was up against a weak opponent. I've said it before, but I don't think Daikichi is a weak opponent. -------------------------------------------------- Group B-23 Chihiro, Spirited Away From what I've heard about Kyoko, these two seem evenly matched to me. I'll go with Chihiro because her improvement really spoke to me when I first saw the movie back in middle school, but I'll be happy with either contestant advancing. 
Group B-24 Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood These two are both very strong, and I'll be happy with either moving on. But there is a reason I'm voting for Scar--I've been reading the fourth 12K novel lately, so Shoukei's arc is very fresh in my mind. One thing I noticed that bothered me a little is that her transformation is very abrupt. She starts improving a bit before a certain event, and continues to improve a little after it, but this event--a conversation with the character Rakushun--is largely responsible for her heel-face turn. Rakushun tells her directly why she's wrong and how to fix it, and she's mad at him at first but then reason and logic win the day and bam! Better person. I love Rakushun dearly, and I still like Shoukei's development, but it really did seem like a flaw how quickly and utterly she realizes the error of her ways. Scar's improvement is much more gradual and nuanced, in my opinion. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6536 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Group A-23
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You Although I nominated both candidates this is quite easy for me. Fakir was my first of several nominations and the character I immediately thought of when the type of tournament was decided. Where Sawako's improvement is heartwarming, Fakir's is inspirational. Bring on Fakir v Youko! Group A-24 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Neither candidate deserves to be here. Both got this far due to their popularity as characters, rather than through any notable improvement. Either will be gobbled up next round. I'm voting for Daikichi because he starts as a bachelor and ends up a parent, which could be seen as some sort of improvement. -------------------------------------------------- Group B-23 Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! Chihiro's is a case of a character's improvement that is superbly portrayed. I've only seen the first episode of Skip Beat but the arguments presented aren't enough to sway me against Chihiro. But I might be wrong and I wouldn't be upset if I were. Group B-24 Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood vs. Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms I thought Scar turned out to be a pretty awesome character in the original FMA and everyone says he's even better in Brotherhood. Shoukei certainly improves considerably (though not always so appealingly as Youko) but the arguments given for Brotherhood Scar have convinced me he is the better choice. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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As far as I remember, in the anime Rakushun and Shoukei are travelling together for some period of time, I believe, a few days, which they spend talking extensively. Rakushun makes Shoukei see things from a different perspective, but it’s not like she becomes a goody-goody. She even says that she will never get used to being poor and not having certain luxurious items around her, so while he helps her to be a better person, she doesn’t embrace her new circumstances with happiness. Besides, the conversation happens after Shoukei had some tough times and shared poverty with the people of her country, so she has already had enough experience to understand how selfish she is. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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Taichi was nominated and got this far because of his character development in the first season. In the early episodes of the first season he was one of the most disliked characters of the show because he was seen as a bully. He became popular because people saw how he himself tried to become a better person. Isn't the character development significant when the character themselves realizes they are flawed and wants to try to improve those flaws? I actually disagree that Taichi has really stagnated this season. The issue is besides some minor scenes there have been very little episodes focused on him in the 2nd season so far. That should change shortly. Although I should note for Taichi stagnating in terms of skill Spoiler: for second season spoiler[he has actually been the only character on the team to win all of his matches so far] I admit I don't think Taichi is a real match against Fakir. But I wonder if it is fair in the first place to nominate a character whose story is still ongoing. Thus we haven't seen the full extent of his development yet. |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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Group A-23
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You For me its Fakir. He improves from the possessive controlling freak that he was and also how his development was executed. I think few can match him in this tournament, but I'll reserve more detailed arguments for a later round. Voting for Fakir, Princess Tutu. Group A-24 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop I voted against both characters last round. I don't think either one is that strong. I love watching Chihayafuru, actually I'm cheering for Taichi x Chihaya, but... i've said it before Taichi hits a rut in his improvement and his motivations maybe partly to blame. As a kid Taichi starts off as a bit of a snob and a bully. Due to jealousy he pulls a mean trick on Arata, which he later apologizes for but hides from Chihaya and which Arata calls him a coward for. He never reveals the truth to Chihaya. Fast forward a few years and Taichi is participating in Karuta to gain Chihaya's attention. One wonders if part of his struggles to raise his ranking maybe due to the lack of purity in his motivation. Does he really love Karuta or is it all only to win Chihaya? If Chihaya were to reject him could he still play Karuta or would his motivation be gone? He also starts to experience pangs of jealousy whenever Chihaya brings Arata up. So he maybe backsliding a bit and falling into old habits. To me Daikichi grows into being a parent and having to make adjustments in his life. He is continuously learning what it means to be a parent and the sacrifices it entails. For example, his conversation with other parents about having time for themselves where he learns that time with your children is time for yourself. This requires a change in thinking on how you live your life. Both shows are incomplete though with Chihayafuru still running and Bunny Drop leaving us with questions on how some of the relationships between characters will turn out. This is a bit of weakness for both. Bunny Drop ends positively and with Daikichi's upward growth meanwhile Taichi's growth seems to have hit a standstill, at least as of the end of fall season. Voting for Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop. -------------------------------------------------- Group B-23 Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! Some have said that Kyoko doesn't grow beyond the first few episodes. I disagree, besides the major attitude change from doormat to hard charging girl she doesn't rocket to the top immediately. She struggles right off the bat failing her audition and then she gets a reality check that it takes more than guts to make it in the business. She needs skills and talent which she comes to be exposed to. Her motivation (spoiler[revenge]) seems to trip her up and she's warned against having that type of motivation. Furthermore, she learns from...uh tall dark and handsome dude (can't remember his name) about professionalism and the importance of it. Good stuff. Kyoko has obstacles, but she has a lot of talent to draw on. Meanwhile Chihiro has to adapt to a strange new world, its rules, overcome a witch, plus her crybaby and scaredy-cat tendencies in order to save herself and her parents. She also matures. For example how she behaves right at the end respectfully speaking to the old witch and comporting herself with a more dignified behavior as opposed to the more childish attitudes seen in the beginning. This one is tough for me and could go either way. I like Skip Beat but I remember being moved by Spirited Away. Voting for Chihiro, Spirited Away. Group B-24 Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood vs. Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms In past rounds voters have said that Scar's improvement was gradual and deep. Some have said in this round its generic. I think I'll take the middle road and say that both of these contestants are fairly evenly matched.
I think I'll go with a smoother executed, gradual improvement (unless someone can tell me why Scar's improvement isn't). Voting for Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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Yes, that's when Rakushun comes into play and helps her to look at things from a different perspective. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18247 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Group A-23
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You Not much to debate here. Fakir not only turns from villain to hero and from disliking to appreciating both Duck and Tutu but also has to complete remake himself on how he does it. I see Youko as his only real competition in this tournament. Group A-24 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop I'm going to be blunt here: my vote for Taichi is 100% an anti-Daikichi vote. People are giving Daikichi way more credit for improving than what he deserves. Learning to become a parent should only count as improvement if it forces the subject to change bad habits/beliefs, and I don't see that in Bunny Drop. Yes, Daikichi modified his work habits to accommodate Rin, but is that really an improvement? He was shown as being good at his job but not particularly ambitious. Yes, he showed a caring side by looking after Rin and prioritizing her needs, but is that really an improvement? It's not like he was ever shown being notably selfish before that, and he was a sympathetic enough soul to offer to care for her in the first place. Just becoming a parent is not inherently improvement (which is what a lot of voters seemed to be arguing last round), and beyond that Daikichi does not have much of a leg to stand on. -------------------------------------------------- Group B-23 Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! While I still think that Chihiro was over-nominated a bit, she unquestionably shows distinct improvement from the beginning to the end; one can see her confidence and comfort level with handling new and unusual situations growing as the movie progresses. That's good enough to get my vote for one more round. Group B-24 Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood vs. Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms This one should be the finals for the Group - and it effectively is, as I cannot imagine either of these two losing to the winner of B-23. Both characters see deep and fundamental changes to their attitudes over the course of their respective series. In Scar's case, he learns to overcome his hatred and propensity to punish anyone that he can get his hands on for the treatment of his people, accept that he's made some truly heinous mistakes, and channel his efforts towards working with former enemies to defeat the true evil underlying Amestris. In the process he turns from being one of the major villains to a semi-heroic figure. Shoukei, OTOH, goes from a sheltered life through hard times which turn her into a cynical, envious, and opportunistic soul partly suffering from a persecution complex - in effect, a pretty rotten individual. Her encounters with Rakashun help her understand how wrongly she's been looking at things and her experiences in Kei finish the job of helping her overcome her selfishness and start contributing to the common good rather than just blithely living on. Which is better? I consider this a toss-up, but I'm giving Shoukei a slight edge because I ultimately found her development to be a little more satisfying. |
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Keichitsu0305
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Yay, I actually have time to vote early!! (for now...
 )
Group A-23 Fakir, Princess Tutu No contest. Group A-24 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru I'm surprised both managed to make it this far; either one will lose to Fakir so, doesn't matter who wins this round. Vote for Tachi because I wanted Clare to go against Fakir but, I guess not. Also, I like how in season 1, Tachi went from a jerk to a competent team leader. -------------------------------------------------- Group B-23 Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! Tough call. Both are great but, for now, I'll choose Kyoko. She was pretty pathetic in the first episode and has only gotten better both in talent and personality in the anime (and manga). Group B-24 Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Shoukei is okay but Brotherhood! Scar's improvement wasn't as "bumpy" as hers. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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A-23: Fakir-is there really anything more I can add at this point? This is probably the most one-sided face off in this voting week for a reason.
A-24: Taichi-Eh, neither one sounds pretty good, and a coin flip is a legit reason. I'd expect either to get slammed quite deservedly by Fakir next round anyway. B-23: Kyoko-I've just never been impressed by Chihiro. I've only read a few volumes of Skip Beat, but I don't feel bad voting for her. I think part of it is that we never see Chihiro go back and actually see if any of her changes stuck. B-24: Shoukei-Call me short term memory deficient, but having seen both the 2003 series and read the manga, I honestly can't remember jack about Scar's character development. I mostly remember he goes from a murderer to less of a murderer. Shoukei on the other hand, I can remember plenty of, and it's good stuff. Hers was something special, whatever Scar went through, not that I can remember, I doubt it's as 180 as Shoukei's. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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I have decided to vote for Taichi Mashima in A-24 and I have already updated my post.
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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Group A-23
Sawako - Eh, Fakir doesn't sound particularly great. Between a jerk who learns to lighten up and a socially awkward girl who learns to open up, I favor the latter. Group A-24 Taichi - Daikichi didn't really have that many negative traits he needed to improve out of. Group B-23 Kyoko - In terms of transformation, Kyoko definitely out classes Chihiro. Kyoko practically became a different person. Group B-24 Scar - Honestly this seems like a no brainer. Shoukei sounds like she was just a rich brat who learned some humility. Not only did Scar start off further down the hole, he also climbed higher. The thing about Scar is that he was pretty justified in his actions. His people really did suffer at the hands of the government so he had every reason to seek revenge. He could have just let Father do as he pleased, since the end result would have been a pile of bodies like Scar wanted, but Scar is the one who actually comes up with the plan that leads to his downfall. Initially Scar's goal was just senseless killing but he grew beyond that to work with the people he once hated for the greater good. He began as a lone crusader of God but ended as a valued comrade. |
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