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eyevocal
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
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 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:26 pm
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| HellKorn wrote: |
| eyevocal wrote: | | Fine. It still won't make me forgive them for their sins of the recent past. |
Dark Horse edited Narutaru and published the series as late as 2006, and never apologized. Guess that means I shouldn't have bought Berserk and Blade of the Immortal, then! |
Only one scene in only one story which would have most definitely gotten them in trouble if they'd run it uncensored (loli-type wearing nothing below the waist, implied sex with said loli-type, graphic dismemberment). I wish they hadn't, but at least it's definitely understandable in this case. Unlike Viz, at least Dark Horse makes themselves accountable for the extremely few times they resort to censorship. They've even reversed one occurrence of it (the Gunsmith Cats fellatio frame), and there was talk of restoring another one (the yacht scene in Ghost in the Shell; was that done?). They don't take their audience lightly. So Dark Horse is still cool in my books. They've even hired somebody who escaped Viz (Carl Gustav Horn); more props.
| HellKorn wrote: | | Btw, I hope you know that the only North American publishers you can ever buy from, based on your inane standards, are Seven Seas, Del Rey and Yen Press. |
And Dark Horse. Fine. It's more money I can put towards anime DVDs. Also, I seem to recall CMX making some noise about re-releasing Tenjho Tenge uncensored. If they do that, they'll go from seeing my boot to seeing my money.
e/v.
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eyevocal
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:44 pm
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| Moomintroll wrote: |
| eyevocal wrote: | | If they would actually, you know, have the transparency to talk with people instead of pulling the spin BS of "it's not censoring, it's only editing" (which is like saying, "It's not an assault rifle, it's only a gun"), then I'd be able to do something about it. As it is, there is no open communication with them whatsoever--because they are scared to death of the possibility of having to deal directly with the criticism that they so rightly earn. |
You want them to provide a detailed response to every pedantic, obscure and unreasonable fantard objection the internet throws up?
They'd have to re-employ those 60 people and then some. |
Yes, I do. If other companies can do it (and sometimes not even wait for our objections), so can they. And why not hire back one or two people to handle it?
| Moomintroll wrote: | | As has been pointed out already, if you support the titles that get the treatment you approve of but not the ones that don't, you help give Viz some indication of what you want and some incentive to move towards that - if you refuse to buy anything from them on general principles (despite the fact that the vast majority of their manga is completely uncensored), you become an irrelevance. If they can't win people back by changing their policies, why should they bother (and in so doing risk losing sales because of higher age ratings on their children's comics)? |
What I wanna know is why Viz think comics marketed to teens in Japan should be hacked up in an attempt to sell them to kids in North America when the country has more than enough titles which are actually for kids and don't require the mistreatment.
| Moomintroll wrote: |
| eyevocal wrote: | | I bought all the original Japanese tankouban of I''s--and I can't even read Japanese. So leech this. |
You're really that desperate for cartoon nipples? It would have been cheaper to buy the Viz editions and draw them in yourself... |
I actually bought them well before Viz licensed it, and even before the scanlations started, because I love Masakazu Katsura's work. When I heard of the results (and saw the comparison scans), I was thankful I did. And no, it's not just a nipple thing; it's also a raised-middle-finger thing and a crucifix-shaped-concrete thing.
e/v
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Teriyaki Terrier
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 5689
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:49 pm
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| KanjiiZ wrote: | I would like to interject on behalf of the Tenjou Tenghe people. I personally have not read much of Tenjou Tenghe, nor did I like it, but if you censor the nudity, you have nothing. TT is a manga meant for only breasts and nudity, and when you take all of that out, you get a really lukewarm story and crappy characters. That was a manga that should have received a complete boycott.
| Quote: | | Fine. It still won't make me forgive them for their sins of the recent past.
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It's a goddamn penis, man! What importance did that penis have to the manga? |
Okay, I was really trying to avoid commenting, but I can't sit back and say nothing to the last sentence, in full humor of course.
Shinnosuke Nohara (from Shin Chan) once sang "to be a man you must have honor and said penis!" I think that applies to this situation.
Hopefully no one takes offense to that quote, but saying anything else would be misquoting the character and Laura Bailey.
I can understand if the censorship is pointless, but in this case, the censorship was warranted and makes sense. The last course of action that needs to happen is for a underage minor tell his or her parents and have the situation blow out of proportion.
Also, what Viz Media censors is very, very little in the last three years. Remember, they have a market to appeal to and they could easily go bankrupt if they aren't tactful with censorship/production.
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Dragynstorm
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 131
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:25 am
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| eyevocal wrote: | | Then maybe someone who cares about fans and art as much as money will get the stuff you previously used to wipe your backside and put it out the way it's supposed to be.
e/v. |
Wow. I mean, WOW. Do you really think that the people that work at Viz plot all day trying to figure out how to "ruin" series? Do you think they come in to work just to "wipe their backsides" with manga? That's hilarious. I've had the pleasure of meeting a number of Viz employees and they are the some of the most respectful fans I've ever met. They adore working on manga. They're not working to wreck series, they want to get these series out there so other people can love them as much as they do.
Oh, and regarding the "what do they tell the creators to get these changes approved" thing... quite often, I believe it's the JAPANESE publisher that asks for the changes. Not all the time, of course, but enough that you should take that into consideration.
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Tamaria
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: De Achterhoek
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:11 am
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| suika wrote: |
| Tamaria wrote: | |
For all we know, the IKKI and Signature series could be some of the more reliable sources of income, because they don't depend on money from fickle teenagers.
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Actually, after reading today's Mangablog MangaBlog that unfortunately doesn't appear to be the situation. It's the franchise series and stuff aimed at those "fickle" teenagers that are doing better overall. Probably because most people outgrow manga once they are out of their teen years.
Emphasis mine:
| Quote: | Every year, retailer Brian Hibbs does an exhaustive analysis of bookstore sales of graphic novels, using Bookscan’s cumulative sales information for the last week of the year. Bookscan doesn’t cover every bookstore, and sometimes things get misclassified, but overall it seems to be a pretty good snapshot. But here’s the thing: Not one of the Viz Signature books shows up in the list of the top 750 sellers of 2009. Not one. You know what sells really well? Naruto and Vampire Knight, of course, and Death Note still shows up near the top despite the fact that the series ended a couple of years ago. What is sort of surprising if you only read blogs is that the Pokemon and Legend of Zelda manga also do very well, better than most of Viz’s other books. But Pluto, Ooku, Oishinbo, even Nana (not a Signature title but one that is hugely popular in the blogospheres) are all absent from the list. The picture may be different in comics stores, but that’s a niche market, especially for manga. If these books aren’t selling well in retail bookstores, then Viz has a problem.
This is actually a fairly common situation in publishing—everyone knows that your blockbuster best-sellers, the ones sold in airports and Wal-Mart, support your more literary, less bankable titles—and I doubt that Viz will stop publishing these series they are so obviously invested in. I’m just sayin’. |
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Bestsellers aren't the only books that bring in the money. If the Signature and IKKI manga consistently bring in more money than they cost to produce and distribute, they are a dependable source of income.
It's true that lots of teenagers grow out of comics, but the ones that don't move on to more mature series and will stick to their favourite series, line or publishers for years to come, decades even. Teenagers devour one thing, then the next batch rolls in and want something completely different.
Nowadays, the book industry is all about gambling. Many publishers just throw things at a wall to see what sticks/appears on Oprah. A few bestsellers need to cover the losses of dozens of failures. Manga publishers do this to, Tokyopop notoriously so even.
However, there are still some books that you can't use for gambling. Books about crafts, cookbooks, books that cater to very specific audiences (schoolbooks, etc) and so on are low risk and often even a dependable source of income. Viz's seinen and josei manga could fall into this category.
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enurtsol
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14797
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:40 am
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| eyevocal wrote: | |
Damn straight. If they've become such a bunch of wusses that they're now mortally afraid of--gasp--nipples, which they had no problem with in the past, then they're better gone. |
Heheh, remember when Japanese TV had no problem with nipples in the past? Heck, Ranma 1/2 was aired on prime time! I guess J-TV is better gone too, huh. Times change, friends. We live with it; don't be held hostage by the past (don't sound like D. Watson).
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agila61
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:35 am
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| Dragynstorm wrote: |
| eyevocal wrote: | | Then maybe someone who cares about fans and art as much as money will get the stuff you previously used to wipe your backside and put it out the way it's supposed to be.
e/v. |
Wow. I mean, WOW. Do you really think that the people that work at Viz plot all day trying to figure out how to "ruin" series? |
Quite. Someone who "cares about fans and art" has to care about money, since its only money that allows the material to be published.
Its like talking complaining about a truck gardener, "if they only cared about fruits and vegetables as much as they care about the fertility of their soil!"
And chasing after doing things exactly the way the most fickle fans want things to be done, or else they boycott!!! is a losing game, since different groups of fickle fans will disagree about different production decisions, so its impossible to do things that will get 100% approval of every fickle fan.
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HellKorn
Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:19 pm
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| KanjiiZ wrote: | | I would like to interject on behalf of the Tenjou Tenghe people. I personally have not read much of Tenjou Tenghe, nor did I like it, but if you censor the nudity, you have nothing. TT is a manga meant for only breasts and nudity, and when you take all of that out, you get a really lukewarm story and crappy characters. That was a manga that should have received a complete boycott. |
I was referring to how utterly stupid it is to boycott CMX's entire output of manga because of the mishandling of one title.
| Quote: | | It's a goddamn penis, man! What importance did that penis have to the manga? |
It's a very artistic penis!
| eyevocal wrote: | | Only one scene in only one story which would have most definitely gotten them in trouble if they'd run it uncensored (loli-type wearing nothing below the waist, implied sex with said loli-type, graphic dismemberment). I wish they hadn't, but at least it's definitely understandable in this case. |
Nope, they edited three scenes, the second of which does actually interrupt the rhythm of the manga -- unlike the one you're referring to -- and also is not explicit at all relative to its surrounding pages. The first one is also totally unneeded, considering what's going on, and the fact that no nudity is shown.
| Quote: | | They've even hired somebody who escaped Viz (Carl Gustav Horn); more props. |
Sorry to destroy your historical revisionism, but he has still done work with Viz after joining Dark Horse.
| Quote: | | What I wanna know is why Viz think comics marketed to teens in Japan should be hacked up in an attempt to sell them to kids in North America when the country has more than enough titles which are actually for kids and don't require the mistreatment. |
Because: "Naruto, Bleach and Dragon Ball = All Viz Manga, Particularly of the Last Three Years"? Those Walmart-inclusive titles represent their entire policy and output of teenage manga (and thus, implicitly, their treatment of manga as a whole)? There's no logic to that.
| Quote: | | And Dark Horse. Fine. |
Dark Horse has, at least, also censored Cannon God Exaxxion (nudity and sexuality) and Seraphic Feather (pubic hair), in addition to the Narutaru edits I mentioned above. And yet you apparently buy Dark Horse manga...
Your line of thought is the same type of "logic" that people used to say that people should buy series they don't like to support companies they do like. It's utterly stupid. I don't care about "supporting companies"; if they put out a good product, then I buy that product, regardless of whether that company is hurting or thriving, and regardless if some of their other products are shoddy or amazing. If they do a good job, and I'm interested in the product, they get my money, period. You seem to care more about petty brand image and self-defeating principles than practicality.
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eyevocal
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:26 pm
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| Dragynstorm wrote: |
| eyevocal wrote: | | Then maybe someone who cares about fans and art as much as money will get the stuff you previously used to wipe your backside and put it out the way it's supposed to be. |
Wow. I mean, WOW. Do you really think that the people that work at Viz plot all day trying to figure out how to "ruin" series? Do you think they come in to work just to "wipe their backsides" with manga? That's hilarious. I've had the pleasure of meeting a number of Viz employees and they are the some of the most respectful fans I've ever met. They adore working on manga. They're not working to wreck series, they want to get these series out there so other people can love them as much as they do. |
I also know someone who works at Shonen Jump (and get along well with). They are so dismayed by the censorship the stories in it get that they regard Carl Horn's move to Dark Horse as "wise."
| Dragynstorm wrote: | | Oh, and regarding the "what do they tell the creators to get these changes approved" thing... quite often, I believe it's the JAPANESE publisher that asks for the changes. Not all the time, of course, but enough that you should take that into consideration. |
Cite, please?
e/v.
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Dragynstorm
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 131
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:50 pm
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| eyevocal wrote: |
| Dragynstorm wrote: | | blah de blah blah |
I also know someone who works at Shonen Jump (and get along well with). They are so dismayed by the censorship the stories in it get that they regard Carl Horn's move to Dark Horse as "wise." |
Really? I must have never met that person then. Everyone I've ever talked to at the company about censorship has been saddened by changes that are made, but I haven't talked to anyone who blames Viz for the changes. Then again, I only know a handful of people there!
| eyevocal wrote: |
| Dragynstorm wrote: | | Oh, and regarding the "what do they tell the creators to get these changes approved" thing... quite often, I believe it's the JAPANESE publisher that asks for the changes. Not all the time, of course, but enough that you should take that into consideration. |
Cite, please?
e/v. |
I honestly believe that anything I give you you will dismiss somehow so there's really no point. Besides my information comes from a private correspondence concerning my work and that's not something I freely share on the internet. Sorry.
However, it's not hard to go google it for yourself.
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eyevocal
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:02 pm
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| enurtsol wrote: |
| eyevocal wrote: | |
Damn straight. If they've become such a bunch of wusses that they're now mortally afraid of--gasp--nipples, which they had no problem with in the past, then they're better gone. |
Heheh, remember when Japanese TV had no problem with nipples in the past? Heck, Ranma 1/2 was aired on prime time! I guess J-TV is better gone too, huh. Times change, friends. We live with it; don't be held hostage by the past (don't sound like D. Watson). |
Since it looks like my original reply to this got deleted (presumably for soapboxing) let's try again, only with less preachiness.
A: I am D. Watson, thank you very much.
B: I'm not being held hostage by the past; the reason why I hate Viz changed shortly after the original reason left the company. In retrospect, that one was better.
C: Yes, TV anime in Japan is more strict on naughty bits than they were in the past, but one can also subscribe to satellite channels or buy the DVDs/BDs to get it uncut. If Viz offered the same sort of choice for their manga, I would be happy--and generous.
e/v AKA Watson.
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Tamaria
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: De Achterhoek
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:40 pm
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Does the lack of nipples really ruin your enjoyment of a series that much? I agree edits are not preferable, but as long as they're hardly noticible, we don't miss anything important and the edits were made with the consent of the author, I don't think there is a good reason to boycot a series or an entire company.
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eyevocal
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:13 pm
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| Tamaria wrote: | | Does the lack of nipples really ruin your enjoyment of a series that much? I agree edits are not preferable, but as long as they're hardly noticible, we don't miss anything important and the edits were made with the consent of the author, I don't think there is a good reason to boycot a series or an entire company. |
If you'd read back a little earlier, you would have read my quote, "And no, it's not just a nipple thing; it's also a raised-middle-finger thing and a crucifix-shaped-concrete thing." In short, it's not the reduced prurience which offends me enough to boycott (there's no shortage of sources for that), it's ramming the intelligence-insulting principles behind censoring art through, regardless of the reason. People Do Notice It--and take exception.
e/v.
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