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Sankarea (TV).


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Riddley



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 536
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:25 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Riddley wrote:
spoiler[Chihiro realizes he actually loves Ranko as he can't fully consummate his feelings for Rea because, you know...she's a freaking ZOMBIE. And while they love each other, Rea also realizes this inability and therefore they both agree to affection but not love.]

Except that such an ending would be a) out of character for Chihiro (who clearly doesn't see Ranko "that way") and b) cut off the more interesting pairing of the two possible ones and c) interfere with the whole reason why the series is called "Sankarea" instead of "Chihiro."

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm happy with the ending, but the option you suggest isn't any better.


a.) I don't think so. If that were the case he wouldn't have felt the need to tell her that spoiler[Sankarea isn't his girlfriend]. If he didn't see her that way, he wouldn't have cared to say it. That would have been in character for him (i.e. not saying it)

b.) I'm sorry, but I don't see that as "interesting." More like disturbing. Like I get the whole "have feelings for someone, tragedy strikes, and how do you deal with that" but Rea is a zombie. Full stop. There's no ability to consummate that relationship.

c.) Again, disagree. Why would the series have to be called Chihiro then? The focus could still be on Sankarea. A series can still be about one of the characters and the struggles that character has while the main lead is spoiler[in a relationship with someone else...spoilered that to keep in line with my spoiler above Smile]


Last edited by Riddley on Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15487
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:47 am Reply with quote
He has a big interest in getting a zombie girlfriend, he sees nothing wrong with being in a relationship with one, and I fail to see how they can not have a relationship. If a shapeless and monstrous alien who's forms can cause madness can be in a relationship with a human, then what is wrong with an re-animated human being allowed to have a living person.

Don't know if you noticed, but he had an attraction Rea before she turned, it even looked like his only zombie girl rule would be stretched.
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happymoose



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:11 am Reply with quote
snip

Last edited by happymoose on Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Riddley



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 536
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:23 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
He has a big interest in getting a zombie girlfriend, he sees nothing wrong with being in a relationship with one, and I fail to see how they can not have a relationship. If a shapeless and monstrous alien who's forms can cause madness can be in a relationship with a human, then what is wrong with an re-animated human being allowed to have a living person.

Don't know if you noticed, but he had an attraction Rea before she turned, it even looked like his only zombie girl rule would be stretched.


I get that he was going on about wanting a relationship with a zombie, but at the same time he was struggling with it wasn't he? When spoiler[Rea "kisses" him] he struggles with that. In his spoiler[dream just before the kiss he sees the zombie girl from the first episode but she's no longer a zombie and when he asks why, she points at Rea.] Maybe I'm the only one who picked up on that struggle, but I think any normal person would struggle with a situation like that. There's a big difference between having a fantasy and actually acting it out.

In fairness it could just be how I'm interpreting it all, but it still annoys me that it's somehow accepted that it's ok to have a romantic relationship with a zombie.

Like, it would annoy me if, as you say "a shapeless and monstrous alien who's forms can cause madness can be in a relationship with a human..." as well. There has to be a way for that relationship to be consummated for me to accept it as a meaningful thing. And again, I'm not talking about just sex. I'm talking about being able to raise kids, live a normal life, etc. Having a zombie girlfriend, who you'll never be able to have sex with, or kids with, or even live a normal life with, comes across as a completely idiotic, self-harming measure.

Actually, I think the biggest thing that bothers me though is that he's a better relationships, imho, with Ranko. And Rea is such a throw-away character imo. Like I was able to somewhat accept the situation in DMoA, if only because I felt that spoiler[ok, once she resolves stuff with shadow Yuuko, then she'll disappear and he'll have to deal with that loss, etc.] And I again had a huge issue with that ending, for these same reasons.

It's a constant theme in anime, these impossible relationships, but I find it annoying that they aren't dealt with in an emotionally realistic, mature manner.
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happymoose



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:11 am Reply with quote
snip

Last edited by happymoose on Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15487
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:23 am Reply with quote
So are you telling me that love requires being able to have kids, so that same sex couples, terminal illness patients, and infertile women or sterile men, can not have love. Years ago culture said that families had to fit a certain structure or ideal, we have made some progress, but some people still try to say that things are wrong based on what they have been brought up by.

Perhaps I have just become an optimist, but I think that all that is important is love. Ironically a series that really changed my opinion was one called Chobits, you should judge something based on what you think would be wrong. I will say here that I would accept things that many people would think is really wrong, that is as long as both sides consent in a way that they understand, and no one is being abused.

It is better to have loved and lost, then to never have loved at all.

As for that dream, spoiler[I think the point was that he found that it was not exactly that he was attracted to a zombie girl, but Rea became his new ideal. It did not matter if she was a zombie or not.]
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Riddley



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 536
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:07 am Reply with quote
happymoose wrote:
There are plenty of people in loving relationships (whether by choice or circumstance) who can't or won't have sex, reproduce or "live normal lives" in both real life and in entertainment. I'm glad you're just some obtuse guy on the internet and not a person in charge of defining a "normal life" or determining the legitimacy of a relationship based on the social norms handfed to you from birth.


1.) I'm entitled to my opinion. You should learn to respect that and not call someone obtuse for having one that disagrees with yours or implying I haven't thought about my personal beliefs over the course of the past 3 decades.

2.) I never once was talking about real-life or making judgments about people in real life. I'm talking about anime, in particular it's penchant for idealizing impossible relationships and stereotypes--something that irks me. And as I said, their often not dealt with in an emotionally realistic and mature manner imo.

DuskyPredator wrote:
So are you telling me that love requires being able to have kids, so that same sex couples, terminal illness patients, and infertile women or sterile men, can not have love. Years ago culture said that families had to fit a certain structure or ideal, we have made some progress, but some people still try to say that things are wrong based on what they have been brought up by.

Perhaps I have just become an optimist, but I think that all that is important is love. Ironically a series that really changed my opinion was one called Chobits, you should judge something based on what you think would be wrong. I will say here that I would accept things that many people would think is really wrong, that is as long as both sides consent in a way that they understand, and no one is being abused.

It is better to have loved and lost, then to never have loved at all.

As for that dream, spoiler[I think the point was that he found that it was not exactly that he was attracted to a zombie girl, but Rea became his new ideal. It did not matter if she was a zombie or not.


No, I think my main point is what I mention above in my response to happymoose and the fact that Rea is dead. It's a little different to homosexuals, sterile individuals, or terminally ill people. You know, them being alive and all Smile

And I absolutely agree, it's better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all. And that's exactly where this anime should have gone, imo. He then moves on, his life and love enriched because of his having met Rea.

My perspective is very heavily influenced by the fact that I'm in my thirties and have lived a lot of life, have kids of my own, etc. But I suppose I subscribe to a belief that stories should hold some elements of human truths. One of them being that everything doesn't always work out. That you can love someone with all your heart, but in the end still lose them, often through no fault of your own or theirs. Oh, and that it's unhealthy to, you know, have a romantic relationship with a zombie Smile
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15487
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 am Reply with quote
Suddenly I feel really sorry for this guy:

Although he also has three vampires in his harem, so that is something like dead on dead love there. Wait, isn't there going to be another show with undead love this season, must be all the rage lately.

But the whole taboo of dead comes from the idea of making out with someone's corpse being disrespectful to the original owner, questionable to acquisition, and unhygienic. Rea is still under full understanding, and she has not rotted yet. Now should I take this conversation into Hug pillow territory.
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Riddley



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 536
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:03 pm Reply with quote
Nay good sir! Please keep the hug pillow territory thoroughly locked down, domo arigato Smile
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Pixelationist



Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 111
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:15 pm Reply with quote
Riddley wrote:
Actually, I think the biggest thing that bothers me though is that he's a better relationships, imho, with Ranko. And Rea is such a throw-away character imo.


To be fair the whole set up is "doomed relationship" and Ranko merely played her part in making Chihiro's decision feel all the more tragic. I do agree that Rea was a bit of a non-character though and the writers gave us very little incentive to root for her.

I really liked the atmosphere of the show and the first few episodes had me on the edge of my seat, but the story just fizzled out for me spoiler[after she died.]
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SereneChaos



Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Posts: 384
Location: Middle of Nowhere, USA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:10 pm Reply with quote
I think you're underestimating Chihiro's obsession. In the beginning, he was fantasizing about a romantic relationship with the typical brain and flesh eating zombies. Compare that with Rea and he's way better off than he could have been.
Besides, based on the last scene, (assuming they make more seasons) I could see the series ending with spoiler[Rea eating Chihiro]. That would be consummating in a way, wouldn't it? Laughing
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Etrien



Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 525
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:50 pm Reply with quote
Riddley wrote:
No, I think my main point is what I mention above in my response to happymoose and the fact that Rea is dead. It's a little different to homosexuals, sterile individuals, or terminally ill people. You know, them being alive and all Smile


It feels like you're adapting your own definitions of "alive" and "dead" that are in conflict with what the show is trying to present. What, exactly, is "dead" in this case? Practically just a label. She's got no pulse, she's got no warmth, and she's probably rapidly approaching mental and physical degradation, sure. However. She's fully mobile and fully sentient, capable of both normal thought and emotion. Those do not fit the standard definition of dead as you're trying to apply. In fact, they're the very opposite. At worst, Rea is currently akin to someone with significant physical disabilities and terminal illness. And saying he couldn't or shouldn't love someone who's dead (by this show's current use of the word) is highly similar to saying he couldn't or shouldn't love someone with disabilities or who is terminally ill. And even though I know you didn't outright mean it that way, the sentiment is honestly kind of offensive.


Riddley wrote:
I never once was talking about real-life or making judgments about people in real life.

...
Riddley wrote:
I subscribe to a belief that stories should hold some elements of human truths.

Riddley wrote:
It's a constant theme in anime, these impossible relationships, but I find it annoying that they aren't dealt with in an emotionally realistic, mature manner.

....?? Not trying to compare to real life, but want the situation treated realistically? Now I'm just confused. Wink


And actually, I strongly agree with that last quoted comment as a general statement. I just disagree with your reasons for this show in particular.
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Riddley



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 536
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:36 am Reply with quote
@Etrien

"And even though I know you didn't outright mean it that way, the sentiment is honestly kind of offensive. "

See I don't get this. You've taken the situation, compared it with something you think is a similar situation, and then made a judgment on my opinion being offensive based on your own personal comparison of it. That's like you saying that you like truck drivers and me then saying that truck drivers are like pedophiles, therefore you like pedophiles.

It's my opinion that loving a zombie/vampire/what-have you that's dead is not a healthy thing. And from a story-telling point of view I think it was weak as well. And I think the obsession with having romantic relationships with things that aren't human is as unhealthy and wrong as actually perusing and having those romantic relationships.

By yours and other's logic, it's equally healthy to have a romantic relationship with a building as it is a person. And that's a sentiment I don't agree with. And I don't think it's offensive to disagree with it either. I don't find offense in people not believing in the same thing as me.
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Etrien



Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 525
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:24 am Reply with quote
You seem to be entirely overlooking, or at least ignoring, the actual point that I and others have been making.

Riddley wrote:
@Etrien
By yours and other's logic, it's equally healthy to have a romantic relationship with a building as it is a person.

That comparison stands only if said building is fully sentient on a level equivalent to humans. One that has thoughts, feelings, dreams, and aspirations. One that moves and smiles and laughs and cries. Oh, and being human-sized, human-shaped and having been born and raised as a human its whole life certainly would help give it qualification. Razz

By your logic, a "relationship" with a person in a vegetative state would be healthy because they are technically "alive", whereas a relationship with a conscious person going about their daily life would be comparably unhealthy because they have the arbitrary and inaccurate label of "dead".

"Dead" is a word that is typically used to refer to something that has ceased functioning. Rea functions. She has emotions, desires, laughs, (paradoxically) blushes, even eats meals - she's living out her daily life. That does equate "dead". "Dead" in Rea's case is a piece of slang or jargon, not the literal word we use in normal life. The main differences between before and after is that now she has to continually take special medication to continue living (hydrangea), she suffers from a weakened body (can't stay in sunlight, limited sensation), and she's terminally ill (expected the medicine can't permanently save her). The show's fiction either way, but she fits the definition of alive far more than dead, just with ailments. Oh, but she doesn't have a pulse. And really, that's pretty arbitrary in this case. If a building had a pulse, would it be a valid partner in a relationship...? Of course not; it cannot be defined as human, even with a pulse. But Rea would be, even without one.


Riddley wrote:
I don't find offense in people not believing in the same thing as me.

Nor do I. Contrarily, I rather enjoy discussing through differing viewpoints. And, I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. I'm not offended at your actual opinions about Rea or the relationship; it's fiction and I've no investment in them. It wasn't the opinion itself, but the method of thinking behind it. Here we have a situation that really can be compared to a "living" person who is otherwise terminally ill and has to take daily medicine to survive, but the reason you find the relationship unhealthy is because someone slapped an arbitrary "dead" label on it. Remove the dead/zombie motif and let it just be frail, terminally girl, and what would you say then?

If you'd still object to a relationship with a sickly girl kept alive by her daily meds...I'd say it's a bit cruel, but it would at least be consistent and logical.

But, conversely, if you would be okay with a living girl who was ill (which, I admit, I am presuming), then the only thing determining whether or not it's okay to be in a relationship is the arbitrary label assigned to her. And approving or disapproving of someone just because of a label given to them is...well, highly discriminatory and close-minded. Now of course, of course, I'm not rambling on about "discrimination against zombies!!" The source of my (mild) offense was that this is the very same method of thought that leads to so much real-life discrimination and prejudice. Getting so caught up on a label or some other preconceived idea to the point of overlooking what it as actually occurring in the situation at hand is a harmful way of thinking. And since so many real people do suffer persecution because of this kind of thinking, it rubbed me a bit wrong. Discrimination is one of my biggest hot-buttons, even when it's unintentional. But, I'm not actually upset and I'm not trying to be antagonistic, so I apologize if it came off that way anywhere. I'm mostly just trying to bring attention to the issue.

In your comments disapproving of the relationship, the only reasons you gave were that "she's dead/a zombie" (and without explaining why that meant anything in this case), or reasons that are equally applicable to very real situations. (Handicapped, infertile, gay, etc.)
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Pixelationist



Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 111
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:25 pm Reply with quote
Etrien wrote:
That comparison stands only if said building is fully sentient on a level equivalent to humans. One that has thoughts, feelings, dreams, and aspirations. One that moves and smiles and laughs and cries. Oh, and being human-sized, human-shaped and having been born and raised as a human its whole life certainly would help give it qualification.

If I met a building like that I would definitely fall in love with it.
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