Forum - View topicREVIEW: Clannad After Story Sub.DVD 2
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dgreater1
 Posts: 307 Location: in the Phillipine's AIR space with Misuzu |
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CLANNAD ending was not crap out of thin air. The ending has been a subject of intense debate before. By your post, I'm assuming you think they spoiler[revive] the whole family. If that's what you're thinking, then let me clarify this to you. spoiler[They didn't come back to life. Your spirit were simply thrown in an alternate universe after you died a miserable death. You could also say your spirit merge with your other self in the alternate universe. The two universes are independent with each other but connected through thoughts. When Tomoya's family died, they did die but are you just going to watch what happened after Tomoya's death which is supposed to be the focus of the show? Key didn't bother to do so because I'm assuming that they're (the KEY writer) know you know that it will probably only lead to another tragedy and so, they pulled out the not so famous Theory of Everything, Grand Unification Theory, Unified Field Theory or whatever you could call it and if that isn't close to real to you then I don't think I'll be able to convince you anymore. By the way, I wouldn't talk about that theory since it will probably only make everyone's head explode including mine, well, unless you like Physics and a bit of Philosophy or just plain curious. Anyway, No Undead were made in this show.] |
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Temuthril
Posts: 45 |
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No, there isn't. You might be thinking about Tomoyo After. |
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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Huh? You have me confused here. I don't remember that spoiler[Tomoya was supposed to die] towards the end of the story. All I saw was that spoiler[ his daughter started to get weak from this mysterios and melodramatic illness and after the scene on the snowy road there was the jump back in time, IIRC.] |
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grooven
Posts: 1424 Location: Canada |
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It actually does spoiler[ He eventually dies in the snow from grief. And thus is taken back to start over with Ushio in the IW which we see in episode 1, which should have been the first scene used for episode 1. And what the hell, the illness is explained.] |
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dgreater1
Posts: 307 Location: in the Phillipine's AIR space with Misuzu |
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spoiler[What do you think would happen to a guy who collapsed out of grief on a road during a heavy snow fall and without any people around to notice them? Basically, the scene was implying that they either live or die. You choose between the two. You could imagine both of them surviving the ordeal and continuing the story or just ending Tomoya's story in that universe with him and his daughter being dead.] |
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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I've just checked this part in episode 21 again. Unlike you or grooven, I don't consider that, as a viewer, spoiler[you're supposed to believe that Tomoya collapses and *dies* together with Ushio on the street. He rather crumbles down because he's complete desperate and sad about Ushio dying.] The whole aspect with spoiler[the alternate universe, the girl and the robot, was - as far as I see and understand the classic main narrative - never meant to be taken literally, hence story-telling wise as an existing world, but metaphorically, representing Tomoya's inner condition. It is implied that Tomoya is gradually dying _inside_, giving up himself and eventually becoming a complete shut-in], which contrasts with what the series wants to reinforce: The positive aspect of unity, family and friendship ties.
Episode 21, first seconds: spoiler[Doctor: It's the same as in Nagisa's case. Unfortunately, I can't tell the cause. But I guess that the same suffering Nagisa-san went through will come.] hmm ... 
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dgreater1
Posts: 307 Location: in the Phillipine's AIR space with Misuzu |
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We see things differently and that's why I said, the implication there is he spoiler[survived and at the same time not]. You'll decide the outcome. If you believespoiler[ he survived the ordeal the moment he *crumbled down* in the snow with Ushio while Ushio dies], then that's a branch of your own belief, your own story (alternate story of your own) while some of us has our own interpretation about that scene. And I believe spoiler[no one would survived sleeping on a snowy road outside a cold winter.] You could say, spoiler[he crumbles down as he loses all hope after witnessing how her daugther's life ended in his hand.]
This is where you are wrong. Kotomi's parents' thesis was about TOE (Theory of Everything), Kotomi's goal was to surpass her parents and find out about their research. spoiler[She gave you an idea about the research in episode 16 of After Story. Tomoyo ~Another World~ and Kyou ~Another World~ is a proof of an alternate universe (alternate story). The Illusionary World, and the alternate worlds are the Hidden Worlds that her parents were talking about. The Illusionary World is not just a metaphor in CLANNAD, it's an existing world that coincides with all universes in CLANNAD. The girl in the Illusionary World represents Ushio while the robot represents Tomoya and their journey to the endless. Remember how Ushio (The illusionary girl) tells the robot that he will go back to that precious moment at the last scene in the Illusionary World. That part is the beginning of all the branch in CLANNAD. That is the portal that literally connects alternate universes. Imagine being in the end of a straight path, yet at the end, there are countless path you can take. Anyway, CLANNAD is a story of stories. A book that has different stories yet uses the same characters.] |
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chrisb
 Subscriber Posts: 617 Location: USA |
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The only thing I found disappointing is that they didn't treat the marriage realistically enough. I know it's a moe show but it felt like even though they were married they were still awkward teens in their first relationship. I found the ending predictable but there was no other way to end the series really, it just felt right.
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grooven
Posts: 1424 Location: Canada |
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They don't explain it in the medical sense but repeating myself ... spoiler[when Nagisa was sick and near death her life was exchanged for the town. This was when Akio asks for someone to save her and takes her to that place. So as the town begins to decrease her life begins to lessen. And her link is specific to the place where the hospital is being built. Ushio inherits this . As the exchange is passed to her. Her body is too small to carry this burden. So Ushio dies. When she dies she is is re-born in the Illisionary world (the first time she died). This Ushio is different than the one we come to know. She creates a body/vessel for Tomoya, whom can sense this place. She does not know of her other self until the end.]
Yeah they even did that in the game. I wanted to see some kind of wedding and the lack of kissing scenes is beyond me why they didn't include them. |
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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I see what you mean, but as an postgraduate in movie studies, I cannot completely agree with fabula interpretations which are based solely on one's own preception and interpretation of a cliffhanger, unless there's also actual narrative proof for it, hence when the narrative (the syuzhet) shows it visually or implicitly via reference or voice-over/soundtrack. Interpretations based solely on what may happen after a cliffhanger, without any linking to succession of events of the narrative (or passed events), such interpretations stay, in the end, in the realm of speculation. In the exact moment in question here (ep. 22, 19:22-26), spoiler[the main character is not being shown dying, nor is it implicitly suggested that he will die. He holds his dying daughter and collapses out of grief. We don't see him fainting, nor sleeping on the road. Moreover, he was more or less healthy before this crucial scene (tried to cheer up Ushio and even give her a piggy ride when they left the apartment, for example). Grief & desperation & collapsing in the snow is no reason big enough to believe that Tomoya will eventually die with his daughter. Of course, it's a crucial moment, a cliffhanger. He may die from hyperthermia if he doesn't get up and nobody notices him, that's logical-thinking, but while we're on it, he also may be run over by a car, that's also entirely possible. The point is, we don't actually see Tomoya unconscious nor is it implied via reference afterwards or before that he has or will die from hyperthermia (or car accident, or other possibility). We see Tomoya's silhouette from behind, collapsing in the snow, staying for a few seconds, and then there's a dissolve to the narrative with the girl and the robot. The robot as a stand-in for Tomoya is working perfectly fine in the cold, which would be rather odd if he is supposed to die.]
"Theory of everything" sounds to me like an excuse from the writer(s) as to what I, as a viewer, will have to accept as final story after the events in episode 22. An attempt to include two and more fabulas from the visual novel into a single fabula. Unfortunately, narrative doesn't work like that. In narratology, there's only one narrative with a specific narrative structure (linear or non-linear). It creates the story-world, the fabula. There's no such thing as countless fabulas existing next to each other which are interconnected by a "gate" and can be reached at any given moment. Narrative isn't a game where one can erase a certain succession of events by simply "taking another path" and still keeping memories and feelings from the erased succession of moments.
Let's continue your though of parallel worlds, multiple paths, hence multiple fabulas, which, speaking narratively, exist next to each other: If the narrative with the girl and the robot spoiler[is supposed to be an existing world in Clannad, why is its timeline then completely unattached to the succession of the events in the world where Tomoya and all the other character live]? Or why spoiler[is the robot functioning properly at the end of episode 21 if you and others think that Tomoya actually has collapsed from grief and probably died afterwards on the frozen road in episode 21]? Just a couple things to consider.
I remember this aspect only faintly, but your explanation is fair enough. spoiler[Her death was symbolically linked to the town and how Tomoya accepts the town/surrounding;] I agree with that. Still doesn't change that her and Ushio's spoiler[illness] were melodramatic, though.
Too much of speculation for me given the succession of moments in the narrative I've seen. I have to see these episodes once again to understand your interpretation of spoiler[Ushio's illness]. |
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dgreater1
Posts: 307 Location: in the Phillipine's AIR space with Misuzu |
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I won't argue about this since that's basically what I think the scene is implying . You'll end up with speculation and have your own interpretation (KEY are famous for giving its fans a way to speculate things, remember AIR and KANON). We'll never know for sure what KEY wanted to imply there since basically it's a vague scene where Tomoya just crumbled down the road. You believe he survived, while I believe it's both but I'm in the side of he died. I even made my own guess long long ago as to what could happen between those moment and it contradicts what I believe. "Kyou who's about to go home due to some business, accidentally finds Tomoya sleeping on the snowy ground, almost lifeless but still alive. Ushio didn't survive though which is a sad thought. But that will open up a new opportunity for a KyouxTomoya story" I think I posted this on ASuki forum.
That's exactly the point, you either accept it or not. And I think Kotomi already explained that there could be many worlds (fabula) connected together by thoughts in episode 16 which ties the string together about how Episode 22 happened. As Kotomi said, thoughts intertwine together, recreating and creating new worlds.And if you think it doesn't work, I won't force you to think otherwise. From episode 16 spoiler[Ryou: The hidden world, was it? Kotomi: Yep. It's another world that exists right next to this one, but it can't be seen or felt. However, we're starting to find out that's not entirely true. Ryou: Really? Kotomi: Yep. It's probably akin to a warped extra dimension. The current theory states that what we perceive as objects are stuck firm to high dimensional planes and they cannot remove themselves from their maximum existence. But for example. energy due to gravity is said to transcend through dimensions. Just like that- Kyou: Stop! Tell us the story so we can understand. Kotomi: That was a very, very simplified explanation. Tomoya: So you're saying that this world and the hidden world are related strongly at a deep level? Kotomi: Yes. Time, space, and peoples' minds echo in a strange way to recreate both worlds or create whole new ones. They might be affecting each other like that. That's what I wanted to say. Ryou: Could our lives be tied to that world too? Kotomi: Maybe, then yet again maybe not. This world is really filled with mystery. Nagisa: I wonder what the hidden world is like. Tomoya: What? Why did I just think of that play? The girl in the world that has ended. Why did I know that story? Nagisa: Tomoya-kun? Tomoya: O no, I was just thinking that in that other world, people might be having parties like us. Kotomi: There may be more than one hidden world. There's a theory of multiple worlds existing too. Tomoya: Fujibayashi, I remember you saying something like that when you were talking about fortune-telling. Ryou: Yes. There is no one future, but there are many possibilities. I still think that way. ] I bolded things you should keep in mind but anyway, I just copy pasted this one.
If you're thinking that the robot is a stand-in for Tomoya that connects to the scene where he crumbles down a snowy road, then I won't change your mind about that but, that's not how I saw it so I had no problem with it, in fact, I was thinking what Tomoya might be thinking at that moment. Probably something really sad like "This world is cruel, please take me with you Ushio... don't leave your daddy here..." and decided spoiler[not to move anymore as they sleep an eternal slumber.] Sad Kid in Snow End
spoiler[The two worlds are independent with each other, having connection with it doesn't mean the things happening in the Illusionary World is completely parallel to the universe where Tomoya is. The Illusionary World is a story (a universe), the world where Tomoya suffers the death of his wife and daughter is another story (a universe) and the world where Nagisa successfully delivered Ushio is yet another story (a universe). The same with Kyou ~Another World (Story)~ and Tomoyo ~Another World (Story)~, all of them are stories of CLANNAD. Even the branches in the game can be considered different stories (universe). You're probably metaphorically trying to connect the Illusionary World with what's currently happening to Tomoya. I'm not saying you can't since basically, that what I did at first as well when I played the game.] |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4613 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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I think Clannad is a great series but I for one love the first part much more than the second.
I like drama, I like a good tragic story and I love it when tragedy is dealt with and even love a little magic helping things along. The thing that makes After Story a much inferior story IMO (and I think is the reviewers main problem) is the RELENTLESS tragedy that is simply not dealt with and then even MORE tragedy. spoiler[So Nagisa dies and what happens next? A five year jump?! Five years of apparent misery in which Tomoya is left miserable and apparently left alone, simply because a five year old daughter is a better character to work with than a baby.] It reminds me of Rumbling Hearts (which I couldn't get past a few episodes of-before skipping to the last), a sadistic "study" of depression and grief in which the affected character is left to his misery without effective aid. After Story is not as sadistic as Rumbling Hearts but by piling on the weepy tragedy over and over it does at least wander into the realm of crass manipulation. Yes, it's sad but we're not talking about the story of Job here. The problem for me wasn't that there was magical ending, it is that magical ending takes too long to get there. I think at one point Tomoya laments something to himself like "aren't I allowed happiness?" and the simple answer is No, that's not entertaining to us, we have to make you sad some more. |
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fxg97873
 Posts: 211 Location: Houston, TX |
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I agree that the ending could have been handled better. Had it been it would, at least in my list, ranked #1 rather than #5 or #6.
I don't disagree with the way it ended but I think most people have a hard time swallowing the ending or view it as a cop out since it generally makes no sense unless you have an uber memory to piece together all the hints in the anime's 49 episodes (most hints only stated once)…or you played the game (or read the game details). The first time I watched Clannad AS, I felt a bit like I did when I watched Evangelion some 14 years ago. I had a sense that all the clues had been sprinkled about as though they were grains of sand and i felt I could understand it if I gathered them all together. But no matter how hard I tried to gather them, some grains would slip through my fingers. I could never get a complete picture. I almost felt I needed scholar level devotion to understand everything. This is Clannad AS. Emotionally speaking, it is the most powerful anime I've ever watched. It knocked me down several times and put me out cold by the 16th episode. 
Clannad's "logical" stumbles at the end are an adaption problem from the game to the anime. The "source" story from the game is flawless. I had watched Clannad After Story as it came out originally on TV and today I marathon the second part of AS on DVD. I'm emotionally exhausted but less confused since I had a year to read up and become an AS Scholar. lol All the hints and details I missed the first time I caught. The anime now makes 98% sense. However, as a stand alone product with no research I can see people "logically" only reaching a 50% satisfaction rate. Emotionally, as I said before, a winner every time. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15483 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I think there was ment to be an overall theme and lesson that the story was ment to drive. spoiler[Everything that hapend was ment to teach Tomoya to not stay alone, if Nagisa died like he did, he would waste years grieving and making himself not feel. He needed to go through both tragidies, and accept that he would be willing to have the the good and the bad. That is to put himself through such pain just so he could still have the good times, and the town brought everything back so he would live his life properly and appreciat, every moment.]
I was hating this series at about 16 and again 21, though I think it was amazing. |
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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Finally a review that doesn't try to pretend that Clannad After Story is the most perfect story ever told. Had a feeling that you would feel about this way where the second half of the season was concerned. It's a real shame they had to go for the overwrought melodrama kind of ending instead of sticking to the theme of family, loss and redemption that it had going.
Extremely unlikely Theron. This show not only has the fanboys from Kyoani, but also has the people that are fanboy for Key stories as well. In the mind of many a modern anime fan with an experience limited to only the most recent of productions this series has established itself as the greatest they have ever seen and very well may have been the greatest they have seen for all I know. Never underestimate this voting bloc. I feel that Clannad After Story whether it deserves the recognition or not could very well stay in the #2 slot for some time to come and may very well transition into the #1 slot on the bayesian scale at any point. I noticed it making a run for it even up to last week, but I guess some votes were invalidated or something as it dropped of by a wide margin the other day.
lol. Seriously thought it was at this point when I realized they were more or less substituting this message for the great one they had going about overcoming the loss of a loved one to accept the responsibilities of a father that I dropped this work from an 8/10 to around 6.5/10. The fact that they corrupted the one theme that I thought was outstandingly done by this series for one last journey into the cathartic was just to inexcusable to not penalize it for in my final evaluation. I'm not kidding when I say I don't think this series deserves the near reverential praise it gets (when you spend upwards of 50% of a show on silly comic relief, another 30% on emotionally manipulative scenarios, 15% on the core theme and another 5% on forcing a happy ending across it's a wonder you should get any at all) , but then again I'm not the majority and I'm certainly not attuned to the workings of the modern anime fans mind. |
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