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hakojo



Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Posts: 208
Location: NE Ohio.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:01 am Reply with quote
maaya wrote:

mh? How can you tell that it won't last? To me Spice and Wolf is one of the few animes where the romantic relationship really did advance quite a lot in a few episodes (compared to others where they never get any closer to each other for a whole season and maybe it might end with a kiss and you never see anything after that ever) and it continues to advance till now, while they face the obvious problem of her being a deity while he is a mortal human. And we'll hopefully see how this continues in the third season Laughing


Horo and Lawrence don't have anywhere near the level of plain old understanding of each other that I like to see between my romantic leads. Now, I haven't seen the second season because the first didn't appeal to me at all (and I did watch the whole first season), but of the material I have seen, Horo spent pretty much all of it just messing Lawrence around and then getting all shy when she screwed something up for him. That's not love! That's stupid teenage relationship crap that you see in Disney Channel original movies, for crying out loud. I dunno, I guess a lot of people like that stuff, but it just upsets me. It doesn't feel real at all.

Also, I have no clue what actually attracts Horo to Lawrence (or vice versa) other than the bag of wheat and wanting a traveling buddy. Lawrence is just kind of this generic, generally-good-natured guy with fairly few defining traits outside of his occupation and the fact that he's a generic good-natured guy. Horo's got a little more character to her, but in the end she's basically a generic snarky girl with animal parts. It'd be a great setup for a road comedy, but I don't get how you pull deep, I-can't-live-without-you, two-halves-of-one-whole romance out of that.
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maaya



Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 976
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:59 am Reply with quote
Well, after having seen both seasons I can tell you that their relationship has developed for sure. Already in the first season there was some developement, eventhough I don't remember the details anymore now ^^; Especially the ending was imho a big step forward.
And there are certain scenes and whole plot lines showing how much they do and don't understand / trust each other, and how each of them is trying to deal with and overcome that (f.ex. the childish Holo, she's actually working on that xD ).
Anyway, to me it was nice enough to enjoy watching them ^^
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Cloe
Moderator


Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 2728
Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:33 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
I wouldn't have said shit if I didn't see some half ass fandom around here.

Deary me, you're completely right! Zac hasn't hit his fandom quota for the month! Clearly he has no choice but to lock himself into a room devoid of any entertainment except for a pile of Spice and Wolf waifu doujinshi and the ending credits to Sora no Otoshimono looping endlessly on a monitor. That ought to catch him up.

Shadowrun20XX wrote:
I'm saying He judged a book by 3/4 of it's cover. There's still more to go.

What? That doesn't even make sense as an adage. As is clearly stated in the podcast, he's judging the show based on its content, not its cover. And let me tell you, we have a phrase to describe books that are dull until 3/4 of the way through: poorly written books.
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KabutoTX



Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:49 pm Reply with quote
Thanks to everyone for the podcast. I really enjoy seeing the technical/business side of the operation. Thanks to Chris for coming on. I found AoD when he first started up and came from LaserDisc, so quality was very important to me. I think Chris's site always leaned toward the quality side of fandom. I always thought of it as the Digital Bits side of anime and you still see that in the HD threads kinda leading the way that anime should be presented. I do find it sad that it seems American companies are STILL behind on the quality side as a whole.

Look forward to the final decade podcasts.
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1935
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:01 pm Reply with quote
Ah, come on Cloe, have you even watched the show or even been paying attention to the American cover, of the manga side, in the manga section. It does make sense. It's an inside joke on my part.

And I'm sorry, is Zac's word God around here? How about some independent thought once in a while. What he said, after not completing the box set Funi so graciously sent him, and what others have said don't add up if you were to actually finish the series. If all you walked away from was the coin dialogue and the attitude of Horo, you've missed the point of this series. You've missed the point of the adventure, the main goal they are trying to achieve. What happens at the end has nothing to do with coins or Horo's attitude.

We can argue all day about this, what we haven't watched and you haven't seen. I can't make you finish a series people seem so bored with, but try to finish or at least fast forward through the last few episodes so that we can get more of an accurate complaint. spoiler[See, the Fenrir form has yet to be mentioned.You can't possibly ignore it. Horo is as big as the screen. It becomes somewhat frightening and uncontrolled. After that tragedy goes down, things change for the better between Lawrence and Horo. It's a very unique sight to witness, Yet none of this was mentioned. There's a reason there is a second season. There wouldn't be if it was, as Zac said it was.]
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:30 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
And I'm sorry, is Zac's word God around here?


Please quote the specific posts that demonstrate this attitude.

Quote:
what others have said don't add up if you were to actually finish the series. If all you walked away from was the coin dialogue and the attitude of Horo, you've missed the point of this series.


If a series fails to convey it's point, it's very reason for existing until the last couple episodes it has failed. You CAN NOT seriously try to deny this.
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1684
Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
If you don't agree 100% with my opinion of a cartoon, you are wrong and stupid and Zac has clearly brainwashed you!!!!

Cliff's Notes version.
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1935
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:19 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Please quote the specific posts that demonstrate this attitude.
I'm not going to waste your or my time, man. If you don't see the moderators appearing in here, I can't help you. I question the amount of content Zac has seen,before mentioning what he disliked about Spicywolf and I, ( having previously reviewed each episode as they came out ) say nothing short of there is content missing.

I do this "?" and several mini bosses appear. Laughing

ikillchicken wrote:
If a series fails to convey it's point, it's very reason for existing until the last couple episodes it has failed. You CAN NOT seriously try to deny this.
In our English mindset,yes. But there is more than one way to watch something. We're talking foreign animation here. You must watch foreign material with a different view, no matter how tired or cliched it is or else you will walk away with the same result of dropping a series before finishing it. And yeah, It is their fault for not living up to the majorities expectations. But this series isn't for the masses. It is otaku material. The novels were out before the animation. The manga was just getting started, and without being prepped for the series, I'm sure that's all that you would walk away from is coins and attitude.

It's understandable to use one way of watching something new but you will inevitably miss some of the best foreign series.(that has been mentioned many times) It could also be the method that we watch them in now a days too. Week to week compared to the way Zac was exposed to it in Boxset form may have been too much to stand.
-------------------------------
Aghh, not Sevakis too. Shocked

Incredible. It's misdirected hostility, I assure you. It has nothing to do with my opinion, guys. It's about what happened in the show. There is a thread dedicated to it in the anime section, where we reviewed each episode as they came out, listing what we all thought.


Last edited by Shadowrun20XX on Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:26 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
In our English mindset,yes. But there is more than one way to watch something. We're talking foreign animation here. You must watch foreign material with a different view, no matter how tired or cliched it is or else you will walk away with the same result of dropping a series before finishing it.
Uh, can you explain what sort of cultural barrier exists so that foreigners wouldn't be able to appreciate Spice and Wolf unless they "change their mindset"? This isn't set in a distinctly Japanese setting with explicitly Japanese aesthetics of storytelling, after all.

Quote:
Fine. I'm done. I'll just bow down and back out. The series is about coins and Holo being a bitch. That's it. You nailed it. I finally understand the show now.

My mistake for questioning the mob. Confused
Strawman aside, you never actually explained what they're missing; even in the spoiler you just vaguely allude to it.
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1935
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:49 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Uh, can you explain what sort of cultural barrier exists so that foreigners wouldn't be able to appreciate Spice and Wolf unless they "change their mindset"? This isn't set in a distinctly Japanese setting with explicitly Japanese aesthetics of storytelling, after all.
How you take in anime must be varied. This story builds to a big climax ( not too hard right) well apparently not if the majority here are against it. If you can't stick it out, you're wanting something more than what they are offering.

It's a slow story that builds up over time, with a sweet climactic ending. Not a quick fix. It's not for everyone.

HellKorn wrote:
Strawman aside, you never actually explained what they're missing; even in the spoiler you just vaguely allude to it.
Not you too. If you haven't seen it, don't want to google it or want to research what a Fenrir is, Why ask this question?

Watch episode one of season two, It sums up what happened in the first season pretty quick.Also there is a thread dedicated to Spice and Wolf. There is no need to repeat this over and over again.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:29 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
I do this "?" and several mini bosses appear. Laughing


Have you ever given thought to the possibility that everyone just genuinely thinks you're wrong? Lord knows me and Zac don't always get along too well. Yet here I am disagreeing with you.

Quote:
In our English mindset,yes. But there is more than one way to watch something. We're talking foreign animation here.


Wrong. Being bored to tears for ten episodes before a series gets good is not enjoyable in any country. A half decent story should be at least somewhat interesting from the beginning. This holds true even if it is something that slowly builds up over time.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:30 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
It's a slow story that builds up over time, with a sweet climactic ending. Not a quick fix. It's not for everyone.
Okay, but I would suspect that those who don't like the Spice and Wolf anime also like anime that are similary structured (at least in the broad sense of their being build-up for one climax). That's a universal form of writing, not a foreign one.

Quote:
Not you too. If you haven't seen it, don't want to google it or want to research what a Fenrir is, Why ask this question?
I know what a Fenrir is. I've also seen the entire first season. But I'm not sure how you've explained how your spoiler refutes the criticisms that people in this thread and podcast level against the show.

Quote:
Also there is a thread dedicated to Spice and Wolf.
Um, yes. I started it.
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Pandadice



Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 182
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:45 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
spoiler[See, the Fenrir form has yet to be mentioned.You can't possibly ignore it. Horo is as big as the screen. It becomes somewhat frightening and uncontrolled. After that tragedy goes down, things change for the better between Lawrence and Horo. It's a very unique sight to witness, Yet none of this was mentioned. There's a reason there is a second season. There wouldn't be if it was, as Zac said it was.]


I uh.. I actually did mention ths giga-wolf form in the first post of the thread

and yeah, her busting out into that form was sweet. the like two times it happened.

and just for the record, I did watch it in it's entirety (season one at least. no plans to watch s2) before I stated it was bad.

However, the ending I thought was disappointing. Like I've said before. Because of how it's just "and our journey goes on~" and you wait for a season two.. an ending like that can't actually be called an ending.. it was just a mini-climax of a seemingly unimportant arc..

And like I've said in the first post of the thread, yeah certain scenes and conversations between Horo and Lawrence really were the highlights of the show. But I didn't care about their relationship see, because after starting the series I had this idea that they were entering a journey, and that it'd end.. not in how lovey dovey they get while on the journey.. I dunno, I guess i really did just expect too much adventure from it, but in stead got a romance. you're right, that's me not watching the series right (i'm not being sarcastic <.<).

But also like I said in the first post, her super fabricated and completely unrealistic dialogue when she's "haggling" with the merchants in the show seriously made me want to just turn it off and not watch it. and likewise, some scenes with her and Lawrence did the same. But, I'll give it to you that they do have there scenes together. and their chemistry, at parts in the show, is enjoyable.

and even if Horo isn't "technically" "moe" or "tsundere", there's no getting around the fact she was designed to pander to the otaku masses, and it worked incredibly.

(p.s. this is the first thread I've ever discussed this in where 100% of people weren't against my opinion Mad)
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1935
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:38 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Have you ever given thought to the possibility that everyone just genuinely thinks you're wrong? Lord knows me and Zac don't always get along too well. Yet here I am disagreeing with you.
Why would you insult me? Leave the mob mentality at home Kid. I'm wrong? Heh, so what happens in the series and what Zac says is the same? Coins and Horo being a bitch? Is that Spice and Wolf? It's so simple, why didn't I see it before. Apparently I watched and read a completely different series. Very Happy

ikillchicken wrote:
Wrong. Being bored to tears for ten episodes before a series gets good is not enjoyable in any country. A half decent story should be at least somewhat interesting from the beginning. This holds true even if it is something that slowly builds up over time.
That's a difference of opinion. There are all sort of ways a movie can go and has gone. It was very enjoyable at the time. Maybe I enjoyed being bored for the first 11 episodes, but I make it my business to finish a series before I mention a single word on the internet.

Who are you to say otherwise?

HellKorn wrote:
I know what a Fenrir is. I've also seen the entire first season. But I'm not sure how you've explained how your spoiler refutes the criticisms that people in this thread and podcast level against the show.
The show holds more than what the podcast or the other posters have mentioned. It's people passing judgment on a show they haven't finished. That's all.

spoiler[There is no secret meanings in my posts. Just finish the series before you talk crap. I cannot simplify this any more. I really do enjoy when Zac talks down about a series. It's hilarious.]
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Keonyn
Subscriber



Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:46 am Reply with quote
Okay, some people need to simmer down a bit here. People are going to disagree with you, welcome to the world of free thought. You're free to disagree with them as well, but do it respectfully and don't soapbox. Telling people they're wrong isn't going to change their minds, and implying that they're somehow less of a fan, or just aren't paying close enough attention or that their disagreement with you is somehow due to a failing of their own is just going too far.
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