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View on Moe.

Ggultra2764 wrote:

I know a true definition of the type of characters for moe is quite debateable. But I've been led to believe the definition focused on characters placed into situations where we are to feel a sense of protectionism towards them for being cute, helpless and submissive.

Sounds like Spirited Away's Chihiro to me.

DuskyPredator wrote:

Ggultra2764 wrote: I know a true definition of the type of characters for moe is quite debateable. But I've been led to believe the definition focused on characters placed into situations where we are to feel a sense of protectionism towards them for being cute, helpless and submissive. Sounds like Spirited Away's Chihiro to me.

Not necessarily. spoiler[Chihiro was forced to fend for herself when her parents became swine and while having some support from Haku, much of the growth in her character came from her gaining the resolve overtime to get through her situation on her own and eventually earning the respect and trust of the other bath house workers. She even found herself having to save Haku's life despite her concern for the boy's well-being.]

Also, I'm amused by Miyazaki's claims, since A) people who are into moe are not automatically into loli, and B) I would hardly be surprised if there are some fans who feel "moe" towards certain Miyazaki protagonists (don't get me wrong, I love his work, but that doesn't mean I agree with him all the time. Likewise, Alan Moore, you're a miracle of an author, but I'm sick of hearing you whine about movies no one is making you watch ).

DuskyPredator wrote:

Sounds like Spirited Away's Chihiro to me.

Not necessarily. spoiler[Chihiro was forced to fend for herself when her parents became swine and while having some support from Haku, much of the growth in her character came from her gaining the resolve overtime to get through her situation on her own and eventually earning the respect and trust of the other bath house workers.]

dgreater1 wrote:

But some Moe depicts realism as well though.

Explain.

Also, people need to stop thinkin that "moe equals doormat." Characters can be assertive while still being moe, e.g. Holo from Spice and Wolf.

Right, like I said above. On the other hand, if you were to describe some sort of live-action character from, say, a Hollywood or East European film as "moe," you'd get laughed at... which is why I'm in favor of people talking about the practical effects of moe, rather than its theoretical ones.

I've read things to the effect that the rise of moe is linked to the steep decline in Japanese birth rate; increasingly childless (and with no prospects) otaku who are also only children longing for a child/sibling. I don't entirely buy that explanation, but it does at least make some sense. But then again, you have to ignore a veritable tsunami of moe porn to accept it as a complete explanation.

Miyazaki's quote is from 1988 and he is probably referring to the lolicon boom of 80s. I don't know why it's on wikipedia's article about moe, because moe as a word did not exist when he was interviewed.

Whereas you previously appeared to adopt the stance that moe is a response-dependant characteristic, you now seem to be implying that in spite of the manner in which a given viewer might respond to it, a production can only be considered moe if the principle characters are somehow devoid of personal resolve.

Am I thus correct if I assume that, for a production to be moe, you expect (some of) its principle characters to have both the propensity to cause a certain reaction in the viewer, and a distinct limit to their personal ability or development?

Quote:

I've read things to the effect that the rise of moe is linked to the steep decline in Japanese birth rate; increasingly childless (and with no prospects) otaku who are also only children longing for a child/sibling. I don't entirely buy that explanation, but it does at least make some sense. But then again, you have to ignore a veritable tsunami of moe porn to accept it as a complete explanation.

I am very curious where this information comes from, I would greatly appreciate it if you would post or send me a link to this article. It sounds like another in a long line of correlations between two unrelated sets of data.

The opposition to pornography in the United States made similar claim a few decades ago, saying pornography contributed to a decrease in birth rates. They used scare tactics such as saying men were no longer interested in women because they had found a substitute in pornography, which was completely untrue. I wonder if this correlation between the rise of moe and the decreased birth rates has any validity. I know the information about the decrease in birth rates is probably an accurate parameter of the population of Japan, but has any real statistical sampling been conducted on the otaku population regarding their rate of reproduction.

Lacking personal resolve is a trait of the response-dependent characteristics found with moe characters as in such titles, they always need to be pushed by other characters to push along development and force a reaction from the viewers. It enforces the "helpless" part of their archetypes to create the protective feelings that fans have for said characters. Dating sim spinoff titles likeKanon and Air are quite notorious for this, especially with female characters in each of the arcs always needing the central male character's help to get them out of their situation.

With games like that the characters often resolve their situation by themselves without interaction with the main character.

You just only see it (especially with the anime versions) in the case where they resolved it by interaction with the main character.

Some examples then, please.

I'd also like to note that while it's basically a different kind of sexism than the bad-ass girls that shoot up a lot of shit, anime/manga is more than capable of turning that into a "moe object" -- i.e. giving Revi from Black Lagoon or Seras Victoria from Hellsing vulnerability. That's where the whole "moe is subjective" angle comes from. I've even seen this "subjective moe" applied to shows that clearly are not aiming at the aforementioned demographic at all -- and is even made by people who dislike moe -- such as Haibane Renmei, Texhnolyze, Castle in the Sky, et cetera. I guess Evangelion also falls under this, considering the adoration of the female characters and Anno's (self-)loathing of otaku. (No moe feelings for any of Satoshi Kon's work yet, though.)

*On the other hand, having moe elements does not mean that the work is moe.

Also, people need to stop thinkin that "moe equals doormat." Characters can be assertive while still being moe, e.g. Holo from Spice and Wolf.

Sounds like Spirited Away's Chihiro to me.