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Zac wrote:

Nope.

If the show's going to do something that controversial then we get to hear the arguments from all sides.

I'll shut it down if it starts getting really nasty (Chagen be as angry as you like but refrain from calling people 'wastes of skin' or whatever) but "NO YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT THIS" isn't what I'm going to do.

I don't know why a dumb, goofy-ass show like Valvrave would have something like that in it in the first place. Christ, come up with something better if you want to be controversial.

This is sunrise we are talking about here, pulling off unnecessary shi* to be SHOCKING is nothing new to me. I never truly cared for this series after watching the first episode, so nothing of value was really lost for me.

Last edited by nightjuan on Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:29 pm; edited 2 times in total

Fencedude5609 wrote:

No, I'm not going to grant them that because seriously fudge you if you think that spoiler[rape] should be used as a cheap plot device.

No, not should, because I'm not praising it as a wonderful thing.

Just could, in that I don't see it as an off-limits development.

I was only following your lead there, since you acknowledged it could have been interesting despite still remaining offensive to you. Of course, clearly you don't think it accomplished this.

Quote:

They easily could have achieved the exact same result with 100% less spoiler[rape] and without ruining spoiler[Saki's] character in the process.

Perhaps, and if I were responsible for the show then I'd write something else in the script. Not because of any real or imagined sense of obligation, but simply because my personal preference is to avoid this sort of dead-end controversy.

But the last part is another place where the dissonance between us will always remain considerable, since I don't think it has "ruined" that character. If anything, I'd find that interpretation to be potentially more offensive in its implications.

Quote:

I'm just incredibly disappointed in the show. This was hack writing by a hack writer and everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves.

You'd have better luck hoping for actual eroge writers to feel ashamed of what they write, and even then I guess most of them don't, despite regularly going into far more offensive territory that makes this debate look like child's play.

Quote:

And no "shock value" is not a good excuse either. If your only reason for including spoiler[rape] is because its "shocking", well, fudge you.

I don't believe that's the "only" reason, but I don't deny it's an obvious factor.

First of all, the word spoiler[rape] is being tossed around here, but that doesn't mean we are talking some kind of spoiler["Irreversible"] type scene.

It's true that Haruto was spoiler[in vampire mode] at the time, but my "shock" was more along line of, spoiler["omg, they're having sex" as opposed to "omg, he's raping her."]

Saki's spoiler[attitude in episode 11 seems to indicate] that's more how she viewed it, too.

As always, if you are interested enough you should check it out for yourself and form your own opinion rather than rely on the sputtering outrage of ANN's more excitable posters.

@fencedud: For me, I assumed Haruto was going to spoiler[suck her blood so the surprise came seeing that they were, uh, doing something else.] And again, when you see her reaction in the next episode, credence is lent to the spoiler["that wasn't an out and out rape"] we witnessed. Certainly, Haruto feels he did, but her attitude lends a different retrospective light to matters.

Blood- wrote:

First of all, the word spoiler[rape] is being tossed around here, but that doesn't mean we are talking some kind of spoiler["Irreversible"] type scene.

spoiler[how the hell do you reverse rape?]

Quote:

It's true that Haruto was spoiler[in vampire mode] at the time, but my "shock" was more along line of, spoiler["omg, they're having sex" as opposed to "omg, he's raping her."]

Saki's spoiler[attitude in episode 11 seems to indicate] that's more how she viewed it, too.

spoiler[IT WAS RAPE. FULL STOP. THIS IS NOT DEPATABLE.

You cannot give consent after the fact. She clearly did not give it and did not want. This porn-ish "they learn to like the rape" is despicaple.]

What you said about episode 11 is actually worse than I feared it would go. That people can't see how utterly disgusting that is is depressing. Well, at least I no longer have any need to see episodes 11+.

Again, recognizing that things aren't black and white, not a thing with you ... ever. The way the action was represented, spoiler[it was not clear to me that for sure Saki hadn't given consent. We certainly never saw her fighting back or giving some definitive sign that this was happening against her will.]

Blood- wrote:

Again, recognizing that things aren't black and white, not a thing with you ... ever. The way the action was represented, spoiler[it was not clear to me that for sure Saki hadn't given consent. We certainly never saw her fighting back or giving some definitive sign that this was happening against her will.]

If consent isn't clear than there is no consent. Period.

For the sake of the record, I don't have any problems calling it spoiler[rape], period, because spoiler[ the victim giving up under duress and/or accepting what is happening doesn't actually equal freely providing consent]. Don't presume everyone is in the same boat about this matter.

I also happen to strongly disagree with Blood- though, since spoiler[ she refused to just let Haruto apologize and then walk away, which seems to be what she feared he'd do. Hence why she ultimately brought up all that talk about being abandoned in the past.

The fact she didn't angrily blame him for the rape doesn't mean she gave consent to the act or was okay with what had gone on. It should be pointed out she clearly recognized it was a "curse" during episode 10, but that's accepting a negative rather than pretending it's a positive.]

Therefore, I don't support how Blood- interpreted the following episode at all.

I think that the ambiguity that Blood- is referring to is part of what makes the whole thing so inappropriate. The show clearly depicts spoiler[a rape] but then tries to play it off as spoiler[just a regular sexual encounter with ep.11's "don't worry he'll marry her and take responsibility and then everything will be ok!! :)))))"] which I feel is very dishonest and does nothing to deal with the real problems going on. It's all very yucky and sad and I wish the writers knew what they were talking about better.

Last edited by bolfotha on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

There's a few reason why this gets on people's nerves

spoiler[

1) it's rape. period.

2) there are TWO victims. Yes, Haruto is also a victim.
Your instinct tells you to blame him and call him a rapist, but if you do, you experience cognitive dissonance. Haruto clearly wasn't in control. He didn't give his consent to this either.

So this turns to frustration, because you don't have a proper outlet to put the blame on.

3) the way character handles things
Haruto despite being a victim, blames himself. This further feeds cognitive dissonance mentioned earlier.

Saki's way of dealing with this is enforcing normalcy. She pre-preemptively shuts down any discussion about the matter and prefers to pretend that nothing happened. But she knows that something happened, and she also knows that it is not his fault. And that's why she's not blaming him. In fact she's not demanding anything except for him to continue pretend that nothing happened. And that's very frustrating to some, because they interpret it as "rape victims should just deal with it and move on"

but they can't even do that, because as said, earlier their are two victims.

So they're caught in an eternal looping cognitive dissonance

]

I just went back and rewatched the scene.

It starts around 20:20. In the first stage, Saki recognizes that Haruto is vamping out, so she says, spoiler["Go ahead and body-jack me. I feel fine." She and we the audience are assuming Haruto is simply craving blood.]

Then Haruto spoiler[forcefully tackles her and throws her on the ground. This clearly surprises and frightens her and she gives out a small scream.]

Then Haruto spoiler[forcefully pulls open her blazer and rips her shirt. It seems clear Haruto is not on board with this. So far, we are unambiguously witnessing the beginning of a rape scene.]

Where things start to get murky is when Saki thinks to herself, spoiler["Now I get it. This really is a curse." What I interpreted that to mean is her recognition that becoming a Valvrave pilot truly means giving up your humanity and doing more than simply becoming immortal and craving blood.]

At that recognition - the recognition that spoiler[Haruto is not himself and is acting under compulsion, Saki tenderly embraces his head. Later there is a image of their hands entwined. The vibe is one of consensual sex, not rape.]

When you combine how that scene ends with Saki's attitude in the next episode, I don't think it's outrageous to claim that something a little more complicated than just, spoiler["oh he raped her"] happened.

Of course we are supposed to be appalled by what Haruto did. He certainly is. But it's ridiculous to ignore other elements.

spoiler[rape is rape blood]

let's not mince words

Myaow wrote:

The show clearly depicts spoiler[a rape] but then tries to play it off as spoiler[just a regular sexual encounter with ep.11's "don't worry he'll marry her and take responsibility and then everything will be ok!! Smile

))))"] which I feel is very dishonest and does nothing to deal with the real problems going on. It's all very yucky and sad and I wish the writers knew what they were talking about better.

I'm afraid I don't agree with your somewhat cynical interpretation either. For several blatantly obvious reasons, I believe we can already tell that everything isn't going to turn out alright, so I think you might be reading that sequence of events upside down.

In particular, the spoiler[proposal isn't about Haruto happily dismissing the issue with a smile on his face. He's dead serious when saying that. It's about him finally understanding that he can't just apologize and walk away from her, which seemed to be what he was going to do beforehand. It's a proposal made more out of guilt than love, and I think it's likely she'll either reject the idea or struggle with it for that reason. Especially since, again, it wasn't "regular sex" but rape by someone in vampire beast mode or whatever.]

Yeah excuse me if I'm not onboard with spoiler["rapist marrying his victim makes it ok"]

You're not even trying anymore.

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