Forum - View topicThe mindlessly cute/violent double standard.
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Mujaki
 Posts: 8 |
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I meant to post something about this on here years ago. Went through a lot of different ways of wording my thoughts on the matter, and could never quite parse out how I wanted to express the notion without needlessly pissing a lot of people off.
Then again, this is the internet and people will get needlessly pissed off no matter what you say or how you say it. So I'm just gonna be blunt: there's been for many, many years now in Western anime fandom a bizarre double standard on fluffy, "brainless" anime and manga that I've never been able to get past and has kept me at an alienated arms length from wider anime fandom and communities for much of the last decade and change. Generally speaking, anime fandom for a long time now hasn't taken very well to brain-in-neutral action or horror anime where the violence levels are extremely high. There's a definite conservative streak that runs through a lot of (though certainly of course not ALL of) Western Otaku culture when it comes to depictions of gore, pain, or suffering. The usual criticisms being that its “offensive” or moreover that its “too stupid” and “lacks real substance” with blood and guts replacing narrative nuance in lieu of having anything deep or worthwhile to say. If (and its a very big “if” here) an excessively violent anime or manga is to be accepted by your average fan, there seems to be this vague, nebulous idea that it needs to have some major, major artistic or intellectual merit in order to “justify” the depictions of wanton violence. And sometimes not even then, as I've seen some pretty brutal anime that have numerous other aspects to them that make them artistically worthwhile get needlessly thrown under the bus for their violence with any other aspects being glossed over. Violence is a very tough sell particularly to the majority of post-millennial Western Otaku, despite whether or not it's also contained with any legitimate intelligence. On its own this would be a standpoint that I could at least understand if there was a consistency to it. Here's where it's always lost me though: most of the exact same kinds of people who will lambast a violent anime as “brainless” and “artless” and “trashy, will also in the same breath have nothing but love and praise for other titles that are basically every bit as stupid and pointless, but with excessive cuteness in place of violence. The issue is the common criticism of violent anime and manga titles being inherently “stupid”. There's a LOT of pretty damned equally stupid titles that pile on the quirk-filled cuteness with a trowel in lieu of any real substance, but those almost always inherently get a free pass or are at least treated with far more critical leniency. The lack of substance is almost never an issue there, and only becomes one when the cuteness is removed and replaced with something “harder” or more edgy. In fact, forget about violence or gore entirely: it seems that almost any title with too much of an edge to it of any kind is looked down upon with much more suspicion than something that's excessively precious. This wasn't as much of an issue 20+ years ago as it's become within the last 10 or so, at least in my experience. Here's the very important thing to bear in mind: its not the personal preference in and of itself that I question. I understand completely that “gag reflex” is a very, very relative concept, as are an individual's personal litmus levels. Not everyone has the stomach for certain depictions of brutality, over the top or otherwise. It's not so much that such an overwhelming majority of fans have a specific preference on the matter as much as it is the way this issue makes so many people within this specific niche of fandom selectively turn into armchair film scholars when it suits their tastes to do so. A given work being “stupid” or lacking in artistic or narrative substance is only an issue when its core aesthetic appeal (in this case maybe either violence or just a general darker streak) runs counter to the typical sensibilities of the average anime fan today. When it doesn't, when the key aesthetic (cuteness and childish precociousness in this case) falls in line with the accepted majority's comfort zone, suddenly an absence of intelligence is no longer a problem. I'm probably no better myself and have probably been guilty of it in other topics, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to examine it any less. I understand and accept that not every work of narrative fiction can or even should always aspire to incredible cerebral depths. There's a lot of room out there in the world for stuff that just wants to have a bit of fun playing around with its given pet theme or trope of choice. A mindless car chase movie, a mindless romance story, etc. I have no problem with any of these things in their proper place and in moderation. Sometimes you just need that more primal release, regardless of whatever form it takes on. But it seems that a vast majority of anime and manga fans today do have a problem with the idea of a perceived “brainless” work, but only selectively when it suits them. The reinforcement of... I suppose one could frame it in gender terms as a form of shorthand and say “feminine” ideals in a less intellectually ambitious work is almost universally more accepted and forgiven for its other possible artistic deficiencies, whereas if a work wants to use more “masculine” concepts to play with, then suddenly the critical knives seem much quicker to come out in a lot of fandom (and I understand of course that tons of females out there have no problems indulging in violent ideas while lots of males react in disgust towards them and prefer more “softer” or romantic ideals: I didn't call it “shorthand” for nothing). There's no consistency to the argument that something like a hyper violent OVA from the 80's is bad because it's “stupid” when compared and contrasted against the much infinitely more easier a time that featherweight shonen and shojo titles are often given despite often being every bit as equally devoid of an intellect. And this isn't even counting the vastly more mystifying scenarios where a violent work that actually DOES have real artistic weight behind it can still sometimes have all its ideas overlooked and get scathingly panned and thrown under the bus simply because it has somewhat nastier and more darker subject matter on its mind than usual. The over-indulgence in cuteness in modern anime and manga fandom is certainly a topic that gets brought into question in lots of anime-related discussions (usually when it comes to moe), but I almost never see this specific aspect of it brought to light anywhere. So that's the question I put to today's anime fandom: why is a more fluffy anime's lack of artistic or intellectual ambition only highlighted as a negative when it's utilizing things like guns, blood, and explosions, and no longer even so much as thought of as a problem when those elements are swapped out in favor of hearts, flowers, friendship, and sugary sweetness? Primal indulgence is primal indulgence, no matter what form it takes. Why does it seem like Otakudom often only wants there to be room for one specific flavor of it while ruthlessly rejecting an opposing alternate one? |
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EricJ
 Posts: 876 |
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(Y'know, one concrete example by title here could have saved at least six paragraphs?)
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3653 |
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I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean that dismissively, I just don't see the situation you describe. Maybe you could be a bit more specific, with examples.
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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@Mujaki
First I must admit that I did not read the whole post. I just skimmed through it so I might have missed something significant. But it seems like my experience is different from yours. My interaction with other fans is limited to forums, this one and a few others. I do not go to cons or belong to any clubs. I very rarely see anybody complaining about violence in anime. I do see complaints about lack of substance, but they are not really blaming that on violence. I quite frequently see people complaining about "moe" and other "cute" things. Where do you see these western anime fans that you speak of? |
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Bango
 Posts: 1122 |
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That rant was bigger than Genocyber's bodycount so I admit I didn't read it all. (seems to be a popular stance with rants around here)
But in my decades of watching anime and being involved with fans irl and online I've actually never known anyone who was opposed to mindless violence in anime. "Mindless violence is far better than poorly executed drama" is a firm belief of mine. |
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TsunaReborn!
 Posts: 4713 Location: Cheltenham UK |
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I'm not quite sure if this is the point but I'll share my interpretation of the first few paragraphs (that's as far as I got, sorry) was that people who prefer violence do not like cute and vice versa?
If this is the case I do disagree to a point as more people are willing to complain about a style than those who would voice their praises. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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...I was expecting this thread to be the exact opposite, complaining about violence fans hating cute stuff.
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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Ditto. In general violent/dark stuff gets a much better reception than cutesy stuff. Just look at all the people slobbering over Attack on Titan. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18213 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I did read the whole thing and I cannot agree with your assessment at all, Mujaki. (For those who don't want to read the whole thing, he's essentially arguing that the cutesy, fluffy stuff gets a pass in Western fandom from having to have any kind of intelligence or artistic merit to it, while hyperviolent fare much more often faces sharper criticism for such factors.) What you're claiming does not jive with my personal experience or what I see being discussed in these forums.
While there may be moe-focused corners of fandom where this double-standard you're talking about does happen, this does not happen here, at least. Cutesy, fluffy, "feminine" shows get slammed just as hard for lack of intelligence or merit beyond fluff as any other type and some very graphically violent series are generally held in high regard: Another, Claymore, Elfen Lied, Gantz (to an extent), Ninja Scroll, and Black Lagoon are all good examples of this, and they're viewed quite favorably by Western fandom in general, too. And let's not forget that there are a lot of hyperviolent titles - especially amongst '80s and '90s OVAs - which are genuinely brainless and so deserve the criticism they get. Last edited by Key on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mujaki
Posts: 8 |
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Um... just so its very clear, nothing in what I wrote was singling THIS forum out in particular. I was speaking in very, very broad terms as to my experience with Western anime fandom as a whole within the last roughly ten years (almost, give or take). That covers far, far more ground than just this one forum.
As a matter of fact I know very well there are some people here who don't at all buy into that line of thinking (its one of the few places where I've seen some clearly very knowledgeable people eschew some very different views from the prevailing norm), and the fact that this is one of the more diverse anime forums is the reason why I posted here because I figured I'd get a wide variety of responses. And also I know that this attitude isn't 100% universal and I've come across my share of people with a dissenting view against it (here and elsewhere): but those people have been very few and far between for me. Which I suppose puts my entire perspective on the matter at direct odds with everyone who's replied thus far. I also didn't use any specific titles because A) this attitude, again in my own experience, had long ago since gone from being something I could narrow down and simplify via some notable examples into something that had turned into a much more deeply ingrained idea that seemed to have permeated a very large portion of fandom over a very long length of time. And also B) because I didn't want to inadvertently step on somebodies favorite anime and derail the topic into going back and forth nitpicking the relative merits of that title. Apologies if that wound up making my post too oblique. Also I didn't think what I wrote was that spectacularly long, nor did I think it came off as especially ranty (assuming "rant" in this case is an attitude of passionate venting with at least some level of vitriol). Wasn't what I was going for anyway: I was hoping it came across as conversational and lucid. Tough crowd. Anyway, if this isn't an issue that people here have a lot of experience with, then I'm sorry for painting with too big a brush and wasting anyone's time, since if nobody else here has continually run into this same line of thinking over the years then there's not really much to discuss. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18213 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Oh, I've run into a little bit, but even expanding out to fandom in general, it's nowhere near as broad or deeply-ingrained a problem (in my experience, anyway) as what you've apparently seen.
Also, I wonder if demographics might play a factor here? I've run into plenty of teen male fans who were very much into the violent stuff and hardly any that placed much value or merit on the cutesy fluff. (But then, with certain exceptions that isn't one of the more analytical aspects of fandom, either). Now, if you want to talk about Japanese otaku, then we're in a whole 'nother ballgame. In fact, a lot of what you describe seems to fit better with them than with Western fans. |
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Jose Cruz
 Posts: 1777 Location: South America |
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I personally hold cute in higher regard than hyperviolence: Clannad > Ninja Scroll. Though I haven't watched the most brainless titles that focus on each of these primal instincts but I have the impression that cuteness is apparently something safer (when it is not mixed with fanservice) than hyperviolence. In fact, censors do not give any penalty to cuteness while hyperviolence is something that automatically turns movies like Akira into R rated films.
Though, given my limited experience with anime, the worst case of cuteness for the sake of cuteness that I know about is Clannad, which I personally do not hold in very high regard artistically though I rated it highly because it managed to affect me but overall appears to be an above average series in general. |
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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base on ANN's interview on sales number. i think in west Shonen type titles(Naruto, DBZ..) > Ecchi > cute > violent > sports
Fan service/Ecchi shows like Highschool of the Dead, highschool dxd ect are super popular. that's why funimation and Sentai love to license those kind shows. I think some people think moe anime suck and has no intelligence merit to are mostly just kind of haters. Those people love only one type of anime doesn't like the fact that other anime are more popular. Those people can hate an anime for no reason other than it's not popular. example, SAO. people in ANN want Adult Swim to fail because it's going to show SAO. Violent and moe both can have good story, bad, or no story. Example, Redline is a pointless violent anime. it has no story. Just like K-on has no story. K-on tried to sell cutest, Redline tried to sell violent nobody license sports because we hate them in US. Kuroko's basket and Free! are very popular in Japan, nobody likes them in here. They may like it, but they do not vote with money. And nobody hate those type of anime because they are no popular.
to answer your question, whatever genre of anime is more popular will get the most hate. Moe is just happen to be very popular. When violent anime become popular again, they will receive alot of hates, so don;t worry. Go back to K-on and Redline. Guess who is more popular, sell more dvd/bluray, get more haters? |
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gingerninja666
Posts: 30 |
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I think it comes down to the intention of the author. If a work is dumb yet it's trying to tell an intellectual story then it's idiocy stands out as more of a flaw. But if, say, you have something like Redline which was made for fun and as a point of passion, then I think it's easier to not over-think it. But it's the viewer's choice really.
But when it comes to cutseyness and violence, I think that's more an issue with the perceived maturity of the work. It's a long established stereotype that Violence = Mature and Maturity is generally seen as more cerebral. |
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