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Hey, Answerman! [2006-07-28]


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jgreen



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1325
Location: St. Louis, MO
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:40 pm Reply with quote
Radical Lindsay wrote:
Those of us in the U.S. are use to the concept of free speech (and I use the term "free" loosely), but wake up and realize and accept that not everything's free, even in this country. All societies need rules and boundaries, in my opinion. I hate it when people spout "freedom of speech, we can say whatever we want, whoo!" It can be abused. I believe we need a little freedom of speech restrictions either by law or society.


I shudder when I hear people say things like this. You cannot restrict free speech AT ALL and still have "free" speech. It's the same thinking that makes people say "You can't disagree with the president...we're at war!" and soon you're sliding down the slippery slope to totalitarianism.

Freedom of speech is one of the single, most vital elements of a functional democracy, and to water it down at all is to shatter the spirit of this country. Just because you don't like to hear something doesn't mean that someone doesn't have the right to say it.

Radical Lindsay wrote:
And just because Wikipedia says nothing proves lolicon or child porn leads to pedophile attacks doesn't mean they didn't encourage or affect them. Stories in the news of pedophiles with any kind of kiddy porn (real or animated) says a lot. They at least encouraged or affected him. Especially when said predator had a huge stash of it.


This is not true. Countless scientific studies have shown that it is puritanical societies that attempt to surpress sexual expression that have higher rates of sex crimes, whereas countries with greater availability of pornography have lower rates of sex crimes. It makes sense, really....if you have a person who has a certain intense, prurient sexual desire, they need a release for that. Pornography allows an outlet for the person. Without that outlet, the psychological need would build and build and the person would be that much more likely to lash out in the form of a sexual or violent crime.

Don't believe me? Read this, an extensive study from the University of Hawaii-Manoa that directly correlates the increase in availability of pornography with a decrease in all sexual crimes, especially those committed against juveniles....

Milton Diamond and Ayako Uchiyama wrote:
Within Japan itself, the dramatic increase in available pornography and sexually explicit materials is apparent to even a casual observer. This is concomitant with a general liberalization of restrictions on other sexual outlets as well. Also readily apparent from the information presented is that, over this period of change, sex crimes in every category, from rape to public indecency, sexual offenses from both ends of the criminal spectrum, significantly decreased in incidence.

Most significantly, despite the wide increase in availability of pornography to children, not only was there a decrease in sex crimes with juveniles as victims but the number of juvenile offenders also decreased significantly.


The reasoning that keeps getting thrown around here, which falls apart quite easily in this light, is that "Well, child molestors always have kiddie porn, so kiddie porn causes people to molest children." No, it doesn't. There is no causal relationship: the person has the pornography because they're a pedophile, but the pornography didn't cause the pedophilia.

That's why I don't have a problem with the existence of lolicon, although I find the concept of it deeply disgusting and never have any intention of watching/reading the stuff myself. As I stated in an earlier post, it's estimated that a whopping TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT of adult men have at least some level of sexual attraction towards minors, which is just staggering. These people need an outlet for that, whether it's getting their girlfriend to dress up in a Catholic schoolgirl uniform or reading a lolicon manga. Lolicon allows this desire to be vented in the only victimless way it can be, by directing these urges at an artificial construct, a fantasy. No children are harmed in the making of it, and its existence can make sure that no children are ever harmed.
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Kitsune_Cool



Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Washington
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:41 pm Reply with quote
I like Zac's avatar. Not that that has anything to do with anything. I recently watched Howl's Moving Castle, and I absolutely fell in love with it.

As far as lolicon goes...

*sigh*

If I fantasize about being with monkeys, but I'm never actually with a monkey, does that make me fantasizing about monkeys okay? Isn't it still a little bit icky? Maybe it's a Picasso monkey, so it doesn't even look much like a monkey. It's just an image, painted on canvas, and hell, maybe most people think it's a dog. (What's up with my dog obsession today?) But in my mind, in my creepy little fantasies, it's a monkey. Now, I'd never sleep with a real monkey, because that would be dirty. I FANTASIZE about being with monkeys, but I don't act on it, so that makes me perfectly healthy, right?

Right???

I have a daughter. I can't imagine trying to justify lolicon to her. "See honey, they're just cartoons, so it's okay if I fantasize about touching them! I'd never fantasize about a REAL girl..."

Same old song and dance. Except for the monkeys. I haven't seen monkeys thrown into the equation today. Probably for good reason. (It's a really bad analogy.)

(and for the record, I do not fantasize about monkeys.)
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jgreen



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1325
Location: St. Louis, MO
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:44 pm Reply with quote
Kitsune_Cool wrote:
I like Zac's avatar. Not that that has anything to do with anything. I recently watched Howl's Moving Castle, and I absolutely fell in love with it.


Howl's is an amazing movie. I need to watch it again....

Kitsune Cool wrote:
If I fantasize about being with monkeys, but I'm never actually with a monkey, does that make me fantasizing about monkeys okay? Isn't it still a little bit icky? Maybe it's a Picasso monkey, so it doesn't even look much like a monkey. It's just an image, painted on canvas, and hell, maybe most people think it's a dog. (What's up with my dog obsession today?)


This post made me laugh really hard, especially considering I just read Guru Guru Pon-Chan for the first time today, which is surprisingly enjoyable for the weird bestiality overtones....
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:50 pm Reply with quote
Malintex Terek wrote:
When you've rebuttled against as many people as I have, I wouldn't be surprised if you would be a little irritated when dealing with the same blockheads over and over.

I would imagine this is how you treat all people that have done something wrong.
Quote:
My bashing as of late is an attempt to stop these people from presenting their distorted philosophy from ever voicing their opinions. The notion, "everyone's entitled to their opinion" is wrong if the opinion is fundamentally rooted in someting immoral, such as, oh, pedophillia.

So if they feel they were wrong in commiting their acts, but their not going to get the chance to express themselves because you have branded them pedos 100 percent. And they are guilty and there is no "until proven innocent".

Quote:
By making an example of the fools here, I hope to illustrate how arsinine any argument in support for something like that truely is. ANN is the "hub" of the anime world with thousands of people representing websites of different varities coming here, and to the forums, for wisdom and discussion. As such, it's also a prime jetstream for spreading ideas, good or ill.

You've made a good example of yourself, believe me.
Quote:
I apologise for any unnecessary insults, but I think the vast majority of them were well warranted and I have no regrets.

And no business on these here forums.

Do you think I am honestly enjoying thinking about having sex with young kids right now. I look at someone young come around and when I look at them, I try very hard to not think about what I might do to them if there were nothing holding me back from it. I am lucky I have my sanity. I am really scared of myself in what I could do, and it is not fun to think of the consequences of what could happen. IT REALLY IS DRIVING ME CRAZY.
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Yuukichan's Papa



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:31 am Reply with quote
jgreen wrote:
I shudder when I hear people say things like this. You cannot restrict free speech AT ALL and still have "free" speech. It's the same thinking that makes people say "You can't disagree with the president...we're at war!" and soon you're sliding down the slippery slope to totalitarianism.


I love when people say this but conveniently forget that none of our rights are absolute (nor should they be, but that's another can of worms). Freedom of speech is not absolute. Not being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater is the classic example. If I remember correctly, neither is what could be construed as "fighting words". Threatening the president with death is a very bad move to make. Slander and libel are also punishable offenses. Maybe I'm taking your words slightly out of context, but the slippery slope argument is a little less cogent when the ground itself is *designed* to not be flat.

Kitsune_Cool wrote:
If I fantasize about being with monkeys, but I'm never actually with a monkey, does that make me fantasizing about monkeys okay? Isn't it still a little bit icky?


Maybe, but they can sure as hell make a birthday card funny.

Once I make these points, I'm done with this drama fest.

1) I still find it strange that those who so readily dismiss a connection between violent media and violent behavior so quickly assume a connection between sexual media and corresponding sexual behavior. There is simply no evidence to support that one *necessarily* leads to another. It's foolish to think that there is no connection at all, but watching a gangster movie does not automatically doom somebody to a criminal life, and I see no difference between that and sexual content provided the viewer is capable of distinguishing between fantasy and reality.

2) I don't appreciate being considered a pedophile just for viewing loli content even though the thought of acting it out on a real child absolutely disgusts me, but the definition of the word is not reliant on the level of realism of its subject. It clearly states tendencies and state of mind, both of which are independent of the media which satisfies said tendencies and state of mind.

3) Most people still haven't addressed the issue of the damage that loli content could potentially do when somebody decides to whip those in power into a frenzy over it. Your and my opinions on it don't matter. It's Mister/Miss Congressperson's opinion that matters, no matter how ill or well-informed you feel he or she is on the subject. When the sh*t hits the fan, it won't be because of shows like Strawberry Marshmallow which despite their original intended audience are innocuous enough to be considered pure fluff. It'll be because of the one high profile sicko who hurts real children and who also has lots of loli stuff in his possession. How are we going to deal with that when it happens?

Really, try to see past your emotions and gut reactions.
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Mint Mania IIDX



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Central
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:41 am Reply with quote
JoshuaStChristopher wrote:
Perhaps I'm just in utter shock that there are people willing to defend child-pornography. Regardless of what anyone personally thinks on the subject, the fact is that when someone creates an anime or manga that sexualizes children, that's what they were trying to do. And I'm sorry, but that's wrong.

Do we seriously need to turn this into a moralistic battle of ethics?

I am not defending child pornography. Everytime I see a CP flood on 4chan, I get sick to my stomach. Whenever I see a loli flood on 4chan, I'm like "Oh hey, a thread about the kind of hentai that I prefer!" Does that seriously make me a pedophile?
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:51 am Reply with quote
Mint Mania IIDX wrote:

Do we seriously need to turn this into a moralistic battle of ethics?

I am not defending child pornography. Everytime I see a CP flood on 4chan, I get sick to my stomach. Whenever I see a loli flood on 4chan, I'm like "Oh hey, a thread about the kind of hentai that I prefer!" Does that seriously make me a pedophile?


You need to learn what words mean before you use them and you also need to stop trying to sound smarter than you really are. "Moralistic battle of ethics" is just... c'mon. You don't know that morals and ethics are not the same thing?

I doubt you get "sick to your stomach" whenever there's a "child porn" thread on 4chan (that they have those there, apparently, is absolutely nauseating) considering if they post those exact same pictures again except THIS TIME it's a drawing instead of a photo, so you're A-OK with it!

You are a pedophile. You are sexually attracted to children.

Better start paying for the therapy or preparing for jail time.
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Pleroma



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Eromanga island
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:07 am Reply with quote
Lol, its sad when people in /b/ are more reasonable than a well known columnist, guess thats why I spend more time there. Whatever, its pointless to argue when someone just shuts their ears and starts calling people criminals.

Anywho, lets just end this as its going in circles, ill just go molest some imaginary lolis and hang out with Superman. Life is so fun when you disregard reality!
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Mint Mania IIDX



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Central
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:10 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
You need to learn what words mean before you use them and you also need to stop trying to sound smarter than you really are. "Moralistic battle of ethics" is just... c'mon. You don't know that morals and ethics are not the same thing?

I doubt you get "sick to your stomach" whenever there's a "child porn" thread on 4chan (that they have those there, apparently, is absolutely nauseating) considering if they post those exact same pictures again except THIS TIME it's a drawing instead of a photo, so you're A-OK with it!

You are a pedophile. You are sexually attracted to children.

Better start paying for the therapy or preparing for jail time.

It's late. I apologize for my really bad use of language. I was trying to convey that morals are not universal.

Also, wow, you're a jerk.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:15 am Reply with quote
Pleroma wrote:
Lol, its sad when people in /b/ are more reasonable than a well known columnist


They're "more reasonable" because you agree with what they're saying.

Mint Mania IIDX wrote:

Also, wow, you're a jerk.


Sorry I hurt your feelings or made you think twice before beating off to kiddie porn.
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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 275
Location: Location, Location.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:17 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I doubt you get "sick to your stomach" whenever there's a "child porn" thread on 4chan (that they have those there, apparently, is absolutely nauseating) considering if they post those exact same pictures again except THIS TIME it's a drawing instead of a photo, so you're A-OK with it!


Well, given the drawings are not real people, meaning that no real children were abused/taken advantage of/whathaveyou, I can certainly see why someone would have ethical qualms with one but not the other.

Zac wrote:
You are a pedophile. You are sexually attracted to children.


Since you provided zero factual evidence to back up this claim I'm just going to assume this to be an ad hominem attempt at garnering support and move on.

Zac wrote:
Better start paying for the therapy or preparing for jail time.


Whether he thinks he needs therapy or not is his decision, but unless he has actual child porn on his computer, he's not going to jail.
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Mint Mania IIDX



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Central
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:24 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Sorry I hurt your feelings or made you think twice before beating off to kiddie porn.

^__^ Silly Zac. You've done nothing of the sort, especially since lolicon isn't kiddie porn.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:30 am Reply with quote
Mint Mania IIDX wrote:

^__^ Silly Zac. You've done nothing of the sort, especially since lolicon isn't kiddie porn.


Right, because it's just drawings of children being raped and abused and tortured.

You're totally in the clear, man. You're an upright citizen who goes to work, does a great job, gives a thumbs up to his boss on the way home, grabs a latte on his way back to the apartment...

And then boots up animated Japanese porn involving 8-year olds being raped, beats off, and then goes to bed.

Clearly this is a totally normal situation and does not involve you fantasizing about children being raped and abused, at all.
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cyrax777



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 1825
Location: the desert
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:30 am Reply with quote
Mint Mania IIDX wrote:
Zac wrote:
Sorry I hurt your feelings or made you think twice before beating off to kiddie porn.

^__^ Silly Zac. You've done nothing of the sort, especially since lolicon isn't kiddie porn.


if your jerking to drawing of little kids its kiddie porn. yeah legaly it isnt moraly it probly isnt but hey its still kiddie porn.
just drawn kiddie porn.


Last edited by cyrax777 on Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mint Mania IIDX



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Central
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:33 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Right, because it's just drawings of children being raped and abused and tortured.

You're totally in the clear, man. You're an upright citizen who goes to work, does a great job, gives a thumbs up to his boss on the way home, grabs a latte on his way back to the apartment...

And then boots up animated Japanese porn involving 8-year olds being raped, beats off, and then goes to bed.

Clearly this is a totally normal situation and does not involve you fantasizing about children being raped and abused, at all.

Wow. There's no debating going on. It's just all the people who think that lolicon = child porn yelling at and attacking all the people who don't. GJ, guys.
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