Forum - View topicINTEREST: Idol Fined 650,000 Yen for Dating Contract Violation
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Mikeski
Posts: 608 Location: Minneapolis, MN |
|
|||||||||||
And it's not like she was sold into sexual slavery by Boko Haram. She had the option of quitting her idol job if she wanted boys more than money. (Or a college education more than song&dance lessons, or...) And "graduating" from her idol group may have left her 5 friends employed, rather than dissolving the group. If she wanted everything at once, well, sorry, that's not how the world works. If, tomorrow, I decide I'm sick of non-disclosure agreements, I better quit my engineering job... not go blabbing industry secrets far and wide while expecting to keep my position. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
|
|||||||||||
|
@Megiddo - Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that "she should have known better than to sign in the first place" statements.
I don't deny the legality of this case at this point (having not read the contract), as much as I disagree with it. And you make a point with the amount of years of training. All the same though, I have an issue with the entire idol system, so I'll never agree with certain stipulations made in those contracts. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Estelle the White Mage
 Posts: 51 |
|
|||||||||||
|
I think a point that needs to be addressed is that the idol broke a core value of what it means to be "an idol".
It's not really about Japan having a problem with purity. It's that there is in fact a demand for such idols, and she must fullfill this role as per her contract. In another sense, it would be like a waitress at Hooters who refused to wear the restaurant's outfit and have little to no conversations with the customers. A waitress' job at Hooters is in fact to look good and talk with the paying customers, not matter how much they ogle her. The job inherently has its quirks about attire and attitude, and as an employee she has responsibilities to maintain it. Referring back to the idols, an if idol must be "pure" per her contract, then as per her job she must not date. This is for the fans' sake, but even if it seem ludicrous that she cannot date as per her contract, she must uphold that anyways due to purity being a core value for her profession. For her to break that breaks the value of an idol. Also there are serious offenses with breach of contracts here in the United States as well. Drake who is currently endorsing the Sprite soft drink is under contract with them for promoting the product. If he so much as holds a Sprite can and yells "this tastes horrible!", or worse is caught with a Mellow Yellow can, he can get fined for thousands upon thousands for tarnishing the product he endorses. This is no different for the idol; she has strict rules to follow (which include not being seen with the opposite sex), and disobeying them has consequences. EDIT: plenty of idols have successfully fullfilled their duties of being an idol, so she really shouldn't have an excuse that she can't handle not dating (if temporarily, seems plenty here would think her employers have a locked chastity belt her and swallowed the key). Not to mention the high demand for such idols is not without its supply; the reasons for such clauses to exist is such that the girl can be replaced if she does not follow her contract. Plenty of other girls would love to take her place as an idol. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
TheAncientOne
 Posts: 1872 Location: USA (mid-south) |
|
|||||||||||
It doesn't have to. My point was to address the apparent assertion that if something is in a contract, one is bound to obey those terms regardless of what the terms are. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
firedragon54738
 Posts: 3113 Location: wisconsin |
|
|||||||||||
|
Well that is messed up that much green for human nature but the idol did enter into a contract to be an idol
But there are a lot of fans that are just plan crazy |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||||||||
Ah, okay, I see your point. Fair enough.
So what? First off, as has been pointed out many times before, her parents would have had to cosign. They could always have overruled her if they thought she wasn't up to the challenge of deciding her own fate. Given that they are adults, are you going to say that they weren't able to make a competent decision? Secondly, her being a minor is a legal thing, not a competence/maturity thing. If we're talking about a student having sex with her teacher then I'd completely and utterly agree that her age means that all of the onus is on the teacher. But fifteen is plenty old enough for a person to make immensely important decisions about their lives that will stay with them forever. Kids around that age decide stuff like what career they'll take or who they'll give their virginity to. A strikingly large number of teens in Japan do live by themselves, even while in their freshman year (anime telling the truth for once). You can be married at sixteen in many jurisdictions (with parental consent of course); that's only one year older than this idol was when she signed up, and we're talking about marriage. In many countries minors can even get credit cards for crying out loud, which surely is a recipe for disaster. With that all in mind, deciding on becoming an idol isn't that much of a stretch. It's a Big Deal, but my point is that teens her age make bigger choices all the time.
In this case she wasn't getting rich - idols aren't well paid, generally - but she did have the chance to be famous, with all the benefits that implies. At any rate, there were clear benefits to the deal. It doesn't matter what precisely those benefits are, only that they exist, and that she wanted them so badly she'd willingly sign on the dotted line. As for the downsides of the deal, I'll point out yet again that everyone knows that idols can't date or even socialise with males outside of their immediate family. That's the whole point of the entire industry, the very thing it is built on. There's no way that a girl who wanted to be an idol would not be cognizant of that.
You give teens - and your gender for that matter - too little credit. See my points above.
Oh, I do agree with you that the industry markets the idol life as being awesome. Except the industry also markets it as being extremely hard work where few make it and that there are enormous sacrifices to be made. The industry may lie about a lot of things but they don't hide the fact that idols have to work their arses off and be pure (or at least have a public image of being such).
Why do you insist on people taking one side or the other when both are true? Why can't a person be of the nuanced opinion that the industry is bad and that the girl was an idiot who severely hurt the people around her? She cost her producer thousands of dollars of investment, and five other girls lost their shot at fame and glory. That wasn't the industry's fault; she made those decisions, she hurt those people. But just so you know - because you don't seem to have seen my earlier posts on this matter in previous threads - every time one of these stories comes out and the creepy fans get angry at how their favourite idol "betrayed" them, I laugh. Yes, I laugh at and mock the fans who, in their idiocy and bizarre fantasies, actually believed that teenage girls would willingly give up dating just to please them. The idol industry depends solely on maintaining the delusions of said fans - those pathetic men with their warped views on female sexuality - to prop itself up and keep the millstone going. There, is that enough industry-bashing for you? Here's the thing though. The very thing that I have been saying throughout this thread and yet so few choose to listen to. No matter how bad the industry is - and it is as warped as its fans are and far more greedy - it is the industry that the girl chose to be a part of. She accepted the awful rules, the restrictions, the hilariously quaint yet quietly disturbing notions of the sort of roles that girls should play in society. Her parents allowed her. The idol industry made no secret of its expectations around relationships (or rather, the lack of them). She knew what she was getting into. She knew it would be tough and hard and unfair. She knew her social life would be screwed and that she wouldn't be able to do the things that normal girls her age like to do. And she wanted it anyway. Her life, her decision. So yes, willag and ikillchicken, I am very comfortable with comparing the idol industry to the devil. It offers glory in one hand whilst threatening your soul with the other. But only a fool would knowingly take the devil up on his offer. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Wandering Samurai
 Posts: 875 Location: USA |
|
|||||||||||
|
One of the few long threads I have taken the time to read all the way through while I have been on this site. Two extreme sides, not surprising. The idol industry is very grueling, and it will make or break you for girls that want to try to become famous. I remember back when it was Morning Musume. And now there there is AKB48 and their 400 spinoff groups, Momoiro Clover Z, Tokyo Girls' Style, Babymetal, JUST to name a FEW groups compared to when I first saw the idol industry some 15 years ago. So when you think about it, supply and demand. There is a HUGE demand for idols in Japan today, and don't anyone dare think that the demand for these idols is restricted to Japan. Believe me, they are popular in the US and in other places of the world too. I know because I've seen these fans at US conventions.
I was follower of Morning Musume back when they first started, but after they kept changing members I stopped following the whole idol thing, simply because it got too big. But since the fanbase is way too big now, there is no way it's going to stop. Girls (and I literally mean "girls") will continue to be fed into the machine that is the idol industry, and the money will keep flowing in to line the pockets of the managers and those who keep these idols in check. Let's be realistic. There are always practices that will be considered "barbaric" by a section or demographic of the population. What cracks me up is how people are calling the practices of the idol industry "barbaric" when there are a lot of other things that are considered humanely worse than the rigorous and restrictive lifestyles that these idols have to go through. They still have their freedom to an extent. Anytime you sign a contract you are limiting yourself, whether that be as an idol, as a professional athlete, a politician, or even your regular 9 to 5 job. Let's take a look at some "barbaric" practices being done today. Such as inhumane treatment of animals, ISIS beheadings, abortion, child slave labor, human sex trafficking, human organ trafficking, domestic violence and abuse, rape, murder, and theft. Now let's close out with a little more lighthearted take on this turn of events in the form of some Rules of Acquisition: Rules of Acquisition #1: Once you have their money, you never give it back. Rules of Acquisition #9: Opportunity plus instinct equals profit. Rules of Acquisition #10: Greed is eternal Rules of Acquisition #16: A deal is a deal. Rules of Acquisition #17: A contract is a contract is a contract...but only between Ferengi. Rules of Acquisition #45: Expand or die. Rules of Acquisition #48: The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife. Rules of Acquisition #211: Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
enurtsol
 Posts: 14773 |
|
|||||||||||
|
Heh, in America, such a judge would've been, if not fired, mass-protested into resigning.
Parts of a contract can be invalidated if it's deemed in violation of some law/constitution/etc. One such group that has such power to invalidate parts of the contract? The courts do. This has happened before - the sports players fought for free agency. The players signed the contracts with their teams, but still fought for free agency in the courts. And the courts deemed that the teams don't control the players that far, and that the players have the right of free agency. And thus, the courts gave rise to a free agents class of workers. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||||
Okay, two things: #1) This is a super revisionist summary of your comments in this thread. You came in here, declared that being angry over this was unjustifiable and insisted that she had only herself to blame. If you now want to backtrack on that or claim this wasn't what you meant, fine. But don't try and sell us this "I was just trying to have a nuanced opinion" line. There's nothing nuanced about the above. It's extremely one-sided. #2) Even accepting this to be the case, criticizing both sides is no guarantee of nuance and/or fairness. Sometimes one side simply is significantly worse. A truly nuanced opinion takes this into account. I mean, on the one hand here you've got a nasty, predatory industry that systematically entices young girls to sign deals with these absurd clauses so they can sell this sexist "purity" bullshit. And on the other you've got what exactly? A teenager who shortsightedly, stupidly if we must be nasty about it, agreed to said ridiculous predatory contract and then failed to live up to it. Yeah, maybe she should have not signed it. It was a mistake. People make mistakes though. Sitting in your armchair and chiding her for it just comes off as callous, smug and belies a lack of empathy and basic human understanding. Especially when you make as big a deal out of her apparent mistake as you do of all the much worse shit the idol industry does in the first place.
Apparently the goalposts are drifting from "she knew what she was getting into" to "she's terrible and deserves it". I think the above insertion of your previous admissions illustrated why this is a silly argument though. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Jonny Mendes
 Posts: 997 Location: Europe |
|
|||||||||||
|
Definition of Idol:
In Japanese pop culture, an idol (アイドル aidoru, a Japanese rendering of the English word "idol") is an entertainment personality marketed as someone to be admired, usually for their cuteness or coolness. Idols are intended to be role models. They are supposed to have a good public image and be good examples to young people. Idols aim to play a wide range of roles as media personalities (tarento), e.g. pop singers, panelists of variety programs, bit-part actors, models for magazines and advertisements. Wikipedia If anybody think idols is a Otaku thing, think again. Idols attract from 8-80 yo people. I have saw middle age parents dancing to idol songs. Parents use idols as examples to tell their kids how to behave. And yes they can't drink, smoke, have bad manners and date. They have to have good grades, and be almost perfect. They have to be kind to everybody. For Japanese a idol is the girlfriend/bf that everybody wants, the daughter/son that every parent whats, the granddaughter/grandson that every granny wants. Not only otaku, but the Japanese people have a obsession with be young and pure. For Japanese 25 yo is old. When a idol and their parents (yes they parents are involved) sign a idol contract they know what sacrifices that involve. For the next few years (from about 13 yo to about lower 20 yo) they know they have to behave in a certain way. Idols have a very short career. They know that they only have that chance. Most idols become regular working man/woman after that. Very few stay in the music/tv industry after be a idol. Even If they get to stay in music/tv industry is better to stay way from scandals. Sex, drink and drugs scandals can destroy a career in Japan I know is complete different in the west. The most outrageous, the best. We have pop stars that behave like they are strippers in Las Vegas, smoke drugs in public and need scandals to keep their carrier going. If you ask me, i prefer that my daughter to become a Idol that, become a west pop star. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Ali07
 Posts: 3333 Location: Victoria, Australia |
|
|||||||||||
Wait, is that what actually happened? I mean, sure, I can see how one can easily come to that conclusion. But, is that what actually happened? Unless I've read the article wrongly, she was only an idol from March 2013 until October 2013. So, she was 15. Personally, I'd question whether or not a 15 year old girl would be meeting up with 2 male fans at a hotel in order to jump into a threesome. At least, I'd question it enough that I wouldn't say it's what actually happened without proof. But, hey, it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that she did accept the invitation with that in mind. And, if that is what happened in that hotel room...one would think that something more would come of it. Unless I'm missing something, she'd be underage... So, as you mentioned, management could run into some trouble...along with the fans.
 I feel like I laughed at this post more than I should've.
|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
rcoot93
Posts: 4 |
|
|||||||||||
Exactly what I wanted to say. If it was a case of she had being seeing some guy for a few weeks/months etc. then fine I would agree that it is harsh to punish her. However going to a hotel room with two fans ( we don't know what happened in there but it doesn't give a good impression and fans being a key word) can destroy someone's career especially when there that young. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||||||||
|
@ikillchicken:
Look man, please chill. I'm being civil here and I'd appreciate that you do the same. If you're going to continue to be that condescending and hostile then I'll just report your post and move on. I'm not insisting that you agree with what I say (which is unfortunately a demand that so many in this thread have made towards myself and others). But at least treat me fairly. I'm on your side; I also against the idol industry and want to get rid of it. So don't treat me like I'm The Enemy just because our viewpoints don't align one hundred percent. Anyway, on to the specific of what you wrote.
You're putting what I said in a different context to which it was made, just so you can misinterpret what I meant. Not cool man. What I did say and mean was that my opinion is nuanced because that I find fault with the girl but I also hate the idol industry. My opinion on this particular case may be straightforward, but on both this case and the industry as a whole - which are the two main topics of this thread - there is nuance there. I make the distinction between the evils of the industry and the irresponsibility and foolishness of the girl. You are correct that I didn't attack the industry straight away in this thread and in fact took a while to do so. But that doesn't mean that I only started to hate the industry from the time I started posting about it in this thread. I've hated the idol industry for a few years now, and have made posts in previous threads expressing my discomfort with the system and mocking fans for being so stupid and unreasonable. So many people in this thread have framed the subject matter at hand as a 'you're either with us, or you're against us, and also a disgusting creep to boot who thinks underage girls should be slaves'. Obviously not a direct quote, but that's the sort of barely-contained hostility that lies just beneath the surface of some people's comments. But this is a complex issue and should not be reduced down to simplistic and unhelpful good vs bad, us vs them rhetoric. That's because while you've got a clearly rotten system that needs tearing down, you've also got people who are lining up to throw themselves into this system to satisfy their own dreams of fame and glory. If those people who knew the risks and the price they would have to pay then break the rules of the system they signed up to, then that's on them, not the system.
If both sides deserve criticism, then it is (nuanced and fair). Especially when there are two concurrent topics running throughout the thread.
A nuanced opinion doesn't decide to forget about facts in some vain attempt to be 'fair and balanced' (my words, not yours). If I wanted that I'd go to you-know-who. The facts of this particular case is that a company is out tens of thousands of dollars if not more, and five girls had their unit disbanded and possibly their careers destroyed through no fault of their own, because another girl agreed to something she knew was not allowed. That's this case. And given the facts of this case, the girl in question has gotten off relatively lightly considering the damage she caused. But in a wider discussion of the idol industry, is it unfair that idols' private lives are severely curtailed? All idols knowingly and willingly agree to this stipulation when they enter into the industry. Plus the very industry the girls want to be a part of would not exist without this stipulation. Given those two things, no, the stipulation is not unfair. Oh, it's weird and creepy and maybe a touch impractical, but it's still not unfair. A debt collector insisting that a heavily indebted woman sell her body? That's unfair and outrageous. Female police recruits in Indonesia having to undergo humiliating virginity tests? Now that's really unfair; most recruits agree to it but there's absolutely no justification for such a 'test' and so it should be scrapped. Idols willingly choosing to enter into a bargain where they promise to be chaste in return for fame and the adulation of fans? That's a Faustian bargain . . . but it isn't unfair. (Granted, the industry should be scrapped anyway, but not because the idols are being exploited.)
The industry needs to vanish; it's too profitable right now to do so, but I hope one day it does go the way of the dodo. But the girls are not unwilling victims who are too stupid to realise what they are getting into, despite what you portray them as. There are countless idol groups in Japan, and yet cases such as this one are rare. Most idols either have no trouble obeying the rules or else are discreet enough not to get caught.
Her court case is the reason the thread exists, hon. Of course I'm going to give it a large portion of my attention.
Now hang on, I don't think she's a terrible person, and I never said anything to make anyone believe that I do. Her acceptance of the invitation to the hotel room did hurt people around her but was not done out of malice or spite, rather simple foolishness and forgetting the cardinal rule of being an idol. That makes her reckless and stupid, not terrible. She did know what she was getting into, and her decision not only hurt her but her fellow unit mates and her employer. That's been my consistent position throughout this thread. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
Hellsoldier
 Posts: 761 Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol |
|
|||||||||||
Well, unfortunately, Japan is a Corporate Tyranny. In fact, I dare say that in this world, few places are not either a Corporate Tyranny or a Wasteland. Major points to mention: 1 - This is a violation of Human Rights. No state is entitled to allow or disallow someone to explore her romantic affections and/or sexual desires. 2 - This norm seems to leave vacant room for sexual and/romantic contact with people of the same gender. I'd love seeing someone punching the system's gut by exploring that same gap (providing she was actually a lesbian or bisexual woman). 3 - I'm gonna love seeing the conflict between the rising number of women complaining (for sometimes justified, and other times not) about sexist elements of the culture, and the people sponsoring this true objectfication of people. This is gonna be a blast. All countries mutate... And Japan is no exception. I will love to see the ruckus it will take and the final result. |
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
|
enurtsol
Posts: 14773 |
|
|||||||||||
|
Heheh, if ya guys are curious how most idol groups really are in the trenches.......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NcIGBKXMOE#t=140 
|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group