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INTEREST: Idol Fined 650,000 Yen for Dating Contract Violation


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CooperRC



Joined: 17 Feb 2015
Posts: 22
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:04 pm Reply with quote
The real blame for all this lies with the idol fans. They are the one's that stop supporting idols when they are no longer "pure".
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Kai99



Joined: 18 Aug 2015
Posts: 89
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:19 pm Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
Kai99 wrote:
No, what we are talking about is not the same. For one, my argument is against the idea that she, as a fifteen year old teenager, fully understood what was getting into, both in terms of what fame meant and the sacrifices she would have to make in terms of the contract. Teens brains are still developing and they lack the same conscious decision making that adults have. To dismiss her youth and say she is just as capable as any adult to understand the terms of a contract and be able to sign such a contract, is MY issue. A better analogy would be that 17 year olds in the US are able to take in thousands upon thousands of dollars of loan money to pay for college without fully understanding what that will mean for their life after college.
The brain isn't done developing until 24(well after you're considered an adult everywhere), so that's nowhere near as strong an argument as you're pretending it is(and your link's broken, anyway). 15 is more than old enough to face responsibility for your actions and expect someone to keep simple promises like no sexytimes(care to remind me how long this was a society-wide expectation?); she knew damn well what she was doing was against the terms of her contract, whether she was forward-thinking when she signed it or if she was thinking past the threesome when she went to the hotel, so she has no excuse. You're abusing scientific facts as an excuse to coddle someone.

(As for student loans, all of society's actively joining together to help colleges prey on innocent people with the whole "get an education even if it's in bullshit and you'll automatically do better in life!" meme; the idol industry makes it perfectly clear what happens to idols caught with men)


I did not say anything about how she shouldn't face consequences for her actions. My argument is against the idea that a fifteen year old should be set to the same standards as an adult in terms of decision making, which was made early in the thread. The argument for brain development IS a legit one, as even though the brain continues to develop until the age of 24, you have to keep in mind the word "development". I wouldn't compare a 5 year old to a fifteen year old. Two different stages of development. And the teen years are specifically pointed out in studies done on how it is very natural for them to not consider the consequence of their actions. Also, here is another truth about teen brains.

Quote:
An area of the teenager's brain that is fairly well-developed early on, though, is the nucleus accumbens, or the area of the brain that seeks pleasure and reward. In imaging studies that compared brain activity when the subject received a small, medium or large reward, teenagers exhibited exaggerated responses to medium and large rewards compared to children and adults [source: Powell]. When presented with a small reward, the teenagers' brains hardly fired at all in comparison to adults and children.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/teenage-brain1.htm

Again, something specific to teens not shared with children or adults.

Should she face consequences? Yes. Do I think she should get all of the blame. No. She young, foolish, who, from what she stated, had no idea what kind of industry she was getting into and did not realize how important it was to appear "pure". Which is what I expect from a teen. Was she given a stern warning on not dating? Hard to say since she herself did not see it as a big deal. It might very well be that the girls were told that any romance must be done behind closed doors and never in public to keep up appearances, and she was unlucky enough to be caught. It also could be that she was one of those very foolish teenagers who were told not to do something, but decided to do it anyway because what harm could it really do. But again, age is a factor in decision making skills and why a teen should not have been under such a contract in the first place. So let me make myself clear. Yes, I agree that she should face consequences for going against the contract, but I also believe that she should not have been given the contract to sign in the first place.

The reason WHY she is in trouble is wrong. This idea of purity and the idol where the idol can't even date, needs to be change. But, in my opinion, the only way it will change is the idols themselves finally taking a stand and fight against this "purity" clause and argue for that right.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5839
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:31 pm Reply with quote
CooperRC wrote:
The real blame for all this lies with the idol fans. They are the one's that stop supporting idols when they are no longer "pure".


The idol fans are the ones supporting the industry. They are supporting the industry for the image, not the singing, and not the dancing. The Image.

If you cannot maintain that image, the sole reason you were recruited and hired for, you have no value in that industry.

There are plenty of pop stars and music groups in Japan. Idols are completely different than those.

Kai99 wrote:

The reason WHY she is in trouble is wrong. This idea of purity and the idol where the idol can't even date, needs to be change. But, in my opinion, the only way it will change is the idols themselves finally taking a stand and fight against this "purity" clause and argue for that right.


They will be easily replaced by other girls, that are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for fame. This is true for any country.

She is in trouble because she broke her written contract, wasted her company's money that was spent training her to be an idol, and got her co-workers laid off.
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Hoppy800



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
Posts: 3331
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:09 pm Reply with quote
Supporting idols just for their image? While true, that's sad and pathetic and probably a sign of mental illness in adults, this is ok as a child though. A real fan would support them for their talent and true personality. That needs to change for the sake of idols and the fan's sanity.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5839
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Hoppy800 wrote:
Supporting idols just for their image? While true, that's sad and pathetic and probably a sign of mental illness in adults, this is ok as a child though. A real fan would support them for their talent and true personality. That needs to change for the sake of idols and the fan's sanity.


Not sure you actually understand the industry. They are not hired for their talent, they are hired to maintain an image that their fans will love. Any real talent in the singing and dancing department is just a bonus.

I would consider any fan, who is willing to spend hundreds of dollars on their favorite idol, to be a real fan. When it comes to fandom, Japan has the west beat.
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Hoppy800



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
Posts: 3331
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:09 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Hoppy800 wrote:
Supporting idols just for their image? While true, that's sad and pathetic and probably a sign of mental illness in adults, this is ok as a child though. A real fan would support them for their talent and true personality. That needs to change for the sake of idols and the fan's sanity.


Not sure you actually understand the industry. They are not hired for their talent, they are hired to maintain an image that their fans will love. Any real talent in the singing and dancing department is just a bonus.

I would consider any fan, who is willing to spend hundreds of dollars on their favorite idol, to be a real fan. When it comes to fandom, Japan has the west beat.


What I'm saying is just because agencies are hiring idols for their image instead of talent doesn't mean it's right, same with the fans supporting them just for their image, it's not right and not healthy. There are some things that just cannot be defended despite being "just the way it is" or "it's profitable".
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5839
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:59 pm Reply with quote
@Hoppy800

I haven't seen anyone defending the industry. Explained yes, but not defending.

But not one person has put forward a workable solution. Because there isn't one, but time perhaps.

The fans want their pure and untouched idols.
The industry wants to rake in the money.
The girls want their fame and their screaming fans.

All the classic ingredients for a Faustian contract, as has been said before.

Do you really think those girls are going to care about what a bunch of western fans think, who want to deny them their dreams.

And if it is okay for Americans to sign their lives away for a chance at stardom or service in the military, who are we to deny the Japanese that.
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Ali07



Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 3333
Location: Victoria, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:09 pm Reply with quote
Kai99 wrote:
She young, foolish, who, from what she stated, had no idea what kind of industry she was getting into and did not realize how important it was to appear "pure".

It is an interesting point you have made, but is it really as simple as that?

One would assume that, the importance of an idol's image would be drilled into them. Hell, just the mention of "not allowed to date" would always turn into a discussion with my friends during my teen years.

I do wonder how hard the concept of "if you date, you lose your job" is to grasp. It just seems like something that, when faced with it, would easily become a topic of conversation...not only at home, but with friends and/or their fellow idol members.

As you showed, the pleasure/reward part of the brain is well developed during the teen years. Could this simply be one of those instances where a teen has known there are consequences of an action...yet they still take the risk, and are then caught?

I know that in my teen years I did things, knowing full well what kind of punishment I may get, on the chance that I wouldn't be caught.

Yes, the ramifications she has faced are much bigger than I ever did/would have. But, without knowing what happened during their training, discussions, and the contract signing, what she stated in court does not (to me) come off as a statement said due to having no prior knowledge.

Could she have know the full ramification of her actions? Maybe not. She could've known that she'd put her job at jeopardy, potentially she could've thought that she'd get a slap on the wrist for a "first time offense" if caught. The dissolving of the group is something that could've come out of left field.

Did she know that there'd be some sort of consequence for her actions? The potential is there. While not stated in the article, I highly doubt that she went to the hotel room with management or a member of staff. But, it does seem like they found out about it after the fact. Usually, that'd mean that she went without anyone knowing. And why would you sneak out? Well, I'm sure we all know the answer to that.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5839
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:20 pm Reply with quote
@Ali07

That isn't something relegated only to teenagers. Adults do things and say things all the time that get them fired or put in jail, and usually for the same reasons and excuses that you just gave.

I am just guessing, but I don't think management caught them. I'd bet money that it was her fans that outed her. Nothing worse than a fan betrayed. Gotta keep those pedestals standing if you are an idol.
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Rensie



Joined: 02 Sep 2011
Posts: 251
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:13 am Reply with quote
I agree with the judge, correct sentence.

When you sign a contract you have to respect it, if you disagree with the contract don't sign it in thefirst place and find another job.

More aggravating, she destroy the whole group.

Morally right or not don't matter, when you get a job you know what to do and you have to respect the rules, and this is valid for everything.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14773
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:40 am Reply with quote
Dessa wrote:

The age of majority in Japan is the same as in [most of] the US, 18.


The age of majority in Japan is 20.


Rensie wrote:

Morally right or not don't matter, when you get a job you know what to do and you have to respect the rules, and this is valid for everything.


The courts are allowed to weigh in morality and/or equity in validation of parts of contracts.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:38 am Reply with quote
Rederoin wrote:
A contract is a contract.
Seconded. However it doesn't help when the judge appears biased toward idolic dogma. Wink
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Ali07



Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 3333
Location: Victoria, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:22 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
@Ali07

That isn't something relegated only to teenagers.

True, it isn't. But, since this discussion is about a teenager, I address it as such.

Was just interested in what that poster has been stating. And thought I'd just point out how I viewed things.
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ShawnOfTheDeadz



Joined: 22 Sep 2015
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:49 am Reply with quote
Just to interject, while I am no expert in civil law, in common law (UK, USA, Canada) someone above the age 13 would be equally liable. Minors must be held to contracts or else businesses would not do business with them. People often forget that every purchase you make at a store, restaurant, etc, is a form of contract. What most people are aware of though is that minors have more protection to protect them from potentially manipulative and harmful contracts. In this case, however, it would not protect them (in western society) because the decision factor is essentially whether or not the contract is necessary or unnecessary to that individuals way of life. As being an idol, explicitly being single has been a long standing tradition. It is easily argued that it is part of being an idol. She both knew the rules, and what was involved in being and living a life of an idol and violated it. She is also fined the amount of money the company had invested in her in order to recoup their costs, not some absurd amount for "breaking the law."

It is also worth noting that the courts were lenient in her fine, as she (I believe it was mentioned) the reason the group broke up. She could have potentially been sued for the entire amount of money the company had invested into the group. As she wasn't, the company actually still comes away with a large loss as they probably won't be able to recoup the money they invested in the other idols. All taken in, I actually feel this was a fair decision on the Japanese courts' part.

... The whole concept on the idol industry, and what it requires to be one is a whole other story however.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:17 am Reply with quote
CooperRC wrote:
The real blame for all this lies with the idol fans. They are the one's that stop supporting idols when they are no longer "pure".

They don't just "stop supporting" them. They turn on them, often rather viciously. They feel *entitled*, as if the idol is in a relationship with *them*, which leads to feelings of jealousy and betrayal. The whole relationship is built on irrationality and delusion, which is explicitly encouraged by those who control the "entertainment" industry over there.

The girls aren't being punished for not being pure, they're being punished for damaging the delusion that has been fostered in all those otaku who use idols to avoid looking at the truth of their own lives and their own society.
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