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INTEREST: Aspiring Animation Creator Alleges Corporate Bias Against Diverse Creators


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murgleis1



Joined: 08 Aug 2020
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:06 pm Reply with quote
I actually sympathize with the corporate overlords in this case. Look at the trainwreck franchise known as RWBY, which pushed a strong "diversity" agenda in a lot of the marketing after Season 3 but ultimately shot itself in the foot over and over again due to bad dialogue and lazy worldbuilding.

Last edited by murgleis1 on Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ermat_46



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 726
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:06 pm Reply with quote
Ryuji-Dono wrote:
Ermat_46 wrote:
Frankly, the only way Crunchyroll could save High Guardian Spice is to put it on HBO Max instead of Crunchyroll. Putting it on HBO Max will expose it to people who are non-anime fans and are possibly ignorant of the show's controversy, and it might find its audience there. Putting it on Crunchyroll's platform will just provoke the loud angry reactionary mob.


Again, execution is the key. If the shows proves to be successful, then the reactionary mob would not matter in the end.


Sorry to say but this show is already tainted in the eyes of Crunchyroll subscribers and anime fans. High Guardian Spice being an average or slightly above average show won't cut it. Its best to put it on platforms that is outside of the reactionary mob's reach. After all, if the backlash didn't matter, CR will not make an effort to actively bury the show's existence.
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Ryuji-Dono



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
Posts: 1210
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:10 pm Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
The fact people could tell easily tell it was about High Guardian Spice kind of defeats the purpose of not naming names so I'm not sure bridges have not been burned already. Especially since creative industries are very anti-criticism of your peers. When you start bad mouthing fellow cartoonists or shows, it's a very quick way to get blacklisted. Especially if you're criticizing things like diversity in a progressive dominated workplace..

That being said, High Guardian Spice easily had one of the worst trailers I've ever seen, easily surpassing Mighty No 9's. It's not really surprising it caused a domino effect and backlash, especially given it was supposed to be Crunchyroll's flagship original series. It wouldn't be out of place at all on Netflix or Cartoon Network which air shows very similar to it, but trying to market that stuff towards anime fans on an anime platform seemed so tone deaf and not really knowing what anime fans actually like or are into.


Are you implying that there shouldn't be diversity on Anime?
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Eudemon



Joined: 24 Jun 2016
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:26 pm Reply with quote
Ryuji-Dono wrote:
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
The fact people could tell easily tell it was about High Guardian Spice kind of defeats the purpose of not naming names so I'm not sure bridges have not been burned already. Especially since creative industries are very anti-criticism of your peers. When you start bad mouthing fellow cartoonists or shows, it's a very quick way to get blacklisted. Especially if you're criticizing things like diversity in a progressive dominated workplace..

That being said, High Guardian Spice easily had one of the worst trailers I've ever seen, easily surpassing Mighty No 9's. It's not really surprising it caused a domino effect and backlash, especially given it was supposed to be Crunchyroll's flagship original series. It wouldn't be out of place at all on Netflix or Cartoon Network which air shows very similar to it, but trying to market that stuff towards anime fans on an anime platform seemed so tone deaf and not really knowing what anime fans actually like or are into.


Are you implying that there shouldn't be diversity on Anime?


Reading it closely, I think he's saying that 1) Artistic/creative industries do not enjoy criticism of people by their peers, and 2), that media production and licensing in the US is generally progressively aligned, possibly especially for companies headquartered in Cali or NY. Thus 3), criticism of progressive goals or execution of them is not a way to make friends in US media production.

Nothing he says seems to imply that diversity is bad, merely that criticizing it is not a way into the industry in the US.
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AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 633
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:34 pm Reply with quote
Ryuji-Dono wrote:
Are you implying that there shouldn't be diversity on Anime?


I'm not sure how you got that from my post, but I'm saying if one of the main selling points of your show is it has an all female writing team in an industry where CLAMP have been active and popular since the 1980s then it comes off as a very odd statement. I'm saying if creators and companies think the same marketing tactics that work in the American animation scene are going to work for anime fanbase then they're going to find it's not going to work. Anime is quite diverse in itself given so many series take place in Japan and star POC characters.
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Kougeru



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 5529
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:38 pm Reply with quote
very unprofessional way to deal with this
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Ryuji-Dono



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
Posts: 1210
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:39 pm Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
Ryuji-Dono wrote:
Are you implying that there shouldn't be diversity on Anime?


I'm not sure how you got that from my post, but I'm saying if one of the main selling points of your show is it has an all female writing team in an industry where CLAMP have been active and popular since the 1980s then it comes off as a very odd statement. I'm saying if creators and companies think the same marketing tactics that work in the American animation scene are going to work for anime fanbase then they're going to find it's not going to work. Anime is quite diverse in itself given so many series take place in Japan and star POC characters.


I was referring to this statement: " It wouldn't be out of place at all on Netflix or Cartoon Network which air shows very similar to it, but trying to market that stuff towards anime fans on an anime platform seemed so tone deaf and not really knowing what anime fans actually like or are into."

But I guess the guy above me already clarified it to me.


Kougeru wrote:
very unprofessional way to deal with this


Yeah. A professional way would be saying that they should pay more attention to marketing and other unheard voices, but throwing profanities left and right and implicitly insulting the creator of other works would only burn bridges.
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Eudemon



Joined: 24 Jun 2016
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:17 pm Reply with quote
Ryuji-Dono wrote:


I was referring to this statement: " It wouldn't be out of place at all on Netflix or Cartoon Network which air shows very similar to it, but trying to market that stuff towards anime fans on an anime platform seemed so tone deaf and not really knowing what anime fans actually like or are into."

But I guess the guy above me already clarified it to me.


Kougeru wrote:
very unprofessional way to deal with this


Yeah. A professional way would be saying that they should pay more attention to marketing and other unheard voices, but throwing profanities left and right and implicitly insulting the creator of other works would only burn bridges.


CN and Netflix carry a lot of Cal-Arts style shows, some with more political undertones than others (See World of Gumball, Steven Universe, Regular Show, Etc). Cal-Arts, and Disney may be some of where Anime's style came from, but they are stylistically distinct at this point, not to mention that there's the cultural baggage any creator brings to a show, and that it is very difficult to imitate that well
Meanwhile Anime fans oft want the Japanese/Asian flavor, even if it's imitating western culture within it (See Little Witch Academia, which seems to have a very similar concept, but is rather different), and will accept an imitation or alteration of the Japanese/Asian flavor (No Game No Life, which has a Brazilian born writer, feels different when I read it, but is still good), but a poor imitation will get a worse response than poor but authentic experiences (see Smartphone vs. half the "light novel" stuff on Kindle Unlimited). And giving me something that doesn't even try to imitate it is not what I'm after.
Crunchroll is a buffet of options. Try things, take what you like, and let others enjoy their stuff. But if your Chinese buffet installs a pizza oven, when your customers have been asking for a sushi bar, expect some push-back.
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El Hermano



Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 450
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:26 pm Reply with quote
Ermat_46 wrote:
After all, if the backlash didn't matter, CR will not make an effort to actively bury the show's existence.


Backlash does matter, it just needs to be from the right people. Adults who complain about kids cartoons like Teen Titans Go don't matter because shows like that are for kids, so as long as the shows pulls in ratings and sells toys it's a success and adults can complain about it as much as they want and it wont change anything. A show on Crunchyroll getting backlash from anime fans does matter though because anime fans are both the target audience and the group that make up the entirety of Crunchyroll's subscriber base. The only opinions that matter are the customer's.

SilverTalon01 wrote:
The problem is how do you convince people to invest enough time into the series to see if the story is any good when they've been burned by these garbage productions? Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I often have to question if a show with a diverse cast is trying to tell a story or push an agenda. I absolutely hate that I think that way now, but so much garbage was produced just to virtue signal that I get bad vibes from anything that looks like it could possibly fit under that umbrella.


I agree. I remember growing up with shows like All That, Extreme Ghostbusters, Static Shock, Hey Arnold, Magic School Bus, Captain Planet, Reccess, and lots of other shows you could classify as diverse and never really thinking anything of it. But these days I think as the term diversity has been warped and twisted by both creators, companies, and journalists as a marketing vehicle to promote works, sometimes with the specific intention to purposely stir up controversy for free marketing and buzz on social media, it now has a stigma associated with it.
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Silver Kirin



Joined: 09 Aug 2018
Posts: 1122
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:56 pm Reply with quote
Well, it's obvious that she was referring to High Guardian Spice, the trailer for that show rubbed me in the wrong way since it focused more on the staff instead of talking about the show itself (I know animation takes time but a brief synopsis would've been fine) and I thought it didn't fit in a platform like CR. I actually looked some info about the show and I kind of felt bad for its creator since he was working on the project for some time and I found out that he pitched the show for Nickelodeon but it was rejected.
The way the trailer for HGS was shown is exactly how Sara was descrbing the practices in her tweets. I don't have anything against diversity, I myself am from Argentina, and I feel glad that people in the U.S. who are minorities can achieve their dreams of portraying their cultures in animation and other media, however sometimes I and some of my friends here have noticed that some studios and creators place too many emphasis on diversity in order to shield themselves from criticism or get more publicity in cases like HGS or Ghostbusters '16 to name a few.
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TexZero



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 583
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:00 pm Reply with quote
I probably have a dumb way of looking at things like this...

But let the art/product speak for itself. I personally do not care what orientation/gender/sex/toppings you choose on your pizza.

I care about the story/style/substance of the product. Putting out a promo video to showcase the creator doesn't inspire confidence in me when it comes to the product.

This is why the HGS trailer was met with such a negative uproar. Whether that was on the creative team or marketing i don't know and don't care to know either. The results spoke for themselves.
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Akamaru_Inu
Subscriber



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 98
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:34 pm Reply with quote
This is so juicy; I completely forgot about this show since they haven't said a thing about it since that trailer.

I'm in the camp that if your only selling point of a show is "it's diverse!" with NOTHING about the plot, characters, or trying to give your characters agency or their own individual beings besides tokenism, then it's not a good thing. i.e., I'm an asexual so seeing Todd from Bojack Horseman turn out to be one of the few explicitly confirmed ace characters in mainstream media was super exciting, but if he had been introduced that way and that was his only selling point (rather than the character having an arc of discovering it himself and dealing with it), it would have been obnoxious.
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Brent Allison



Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2444
Location: Athens-Clarke County, GA, USA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:08 pm Reply with quote
It's become apparent that managing one's own social media account is a bad idea. For anyone. So why should only rich people have social media managers?

Remember the old days when you paid X cents per text message? Someone should have a business where a user impulsively posts something off-the-cuff, but instead of it automatically posting to Twitter, FB, or wherever, it goes to a "social media filtering professional". This person could charge, I dunno, 50 cents to a dollar a message and then writes a more sanitized version, or simply advises the user to not let it appear at all. Think of the careers that will be saved! It could revolutionize the economy by providing more work-from-home jobs too! Just saying...

EDIT: My wife just advised me that there may be security issues with this scheme, but I'm floating an idea and choose not to entertain such a triviality at this time.

EDIT2: "You're calling your wife's advice 'trivial'? That seems like an important point to me!" I know that, I was just being ironic.


Last edited by Brent Allison on Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TexZero



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 583
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:12 pm Reply with quote
Brent Allison wrote:
It's become apparent that managing one's own social media account is a bad idea. For anyone. So why should only rich people have social media managers?

Remember the old days when you paid X cents per text message? Someone should have a business where a user impulsively posts something off-the-cuff, but instead of it automatically posting to Twitter, FB, or wherever, it goes to a "social media filtering professional". This person could charge, I dunno, 50 cents to a dollar a message and then writes a more sanitized version, or simply advises the user to not let it appear at all. Think of the careers that will be saved! It could revolutionize the economy by providing more work-from-home jobs too! Just saying...

EDIT: My wife just advised me that there may be security issues with this scheme, but I'm floating an idea and choose not to entertain such a triviality at this time.


Eh this reminds me of a quote i heard on some talk show.

Social Media alone will never get you hired. But it sure as heck has gotten countless people fired.
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CatSword



Joined: 01 Jul 2014
Posts: 1489
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Brent Allison wrote:
Remember the old days when you paid X cents per text message? Someone should have a business where a user impulsively posts something off-the-cuff, but instead of it automatically posting to Twitter, FB, or wherever, it goes to a "social media filtering professional". This person could charge, I dunno, 50 cents to a dollar a message and then writes a more sanitized version, or simply advises the user to not let it appear at all. Think of the careers that will be saved! It could revolutionize the economy by providing more work-from-home jobs too! Just saying...


What's this got to do with the topic at hand? I think the user was very justified in sharing their experience.

The High Guardian Spice production team, on the other hand, could definitely benefit from a service like this.


Last edited by CatSword on Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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