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EP. REVIEW: Lycoris Recoil


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dm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:14 pm Reply with quote
So far this series seems like the K-on of Psycho-passes.

Chisato's schtick seems to be she can predict the paths of the bullets from the position of the gun as it is being fired (this will be my theory up to the point we see her do it when the shooter is behind her). There was a point in the training sequence in which she displayed ridiculously-fast reflexes on a vertical whack-a-mole. I bet she's dynamite at uta-garuta.
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meiam



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:28 pm Reply with quote
I tried the two first episode, but I had to nope hard when the girl was just casually walking between bullet. If you're going to ask me to suspend disbelief that much, just set in a fantastical setting.

Maybe I'll keep an eye on it to see if does go that way eventually, but for now ima pass or I'll just re watch gunsliger girl.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:22 pm Reply with quote
dm wrote:
Chisato's schtick seems to be she can predict the paths of the bullets from the position of the gun as it is being fired (this will be my theory up to the point we see her do it when the shooter is behind her).

No need to have a theory about it; the commander outright says that at the 20:12 mark of episode 3. Of course, she'd also have to have incredible reflexes to take advantage of that insight.

I am also liking what I've seen of the series so far. The banter in episode 3 in particular impressed me for how free-flowing it was and how much the direction allowed it to just go rather than emphasizing zingers for dramatic effect. Also liked how Chisato showed in this episode that there's a bit more to her character than just being a free-wheeling, cheeky brat. I am less concerned about what direction it's going, as the series has already dropped some hints about a bigger picture, and that leads me to believe that it won't just devolve into a "CGDCT, but with guns" scenario. It's definitely one of the most promising "girls with guns" series we've had in quite some time.
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TanyaTheEvil



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:38 pm Reply with quote
This is one of my favorite anime this season. The dynamic between the two girls are awesome and the over all story and animation is outstanding
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Thesarum



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:40 pm Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
I tried the two first episode, but I had to nope hard when the girl was just casually walking between bullet. If you're going to ask me to suspend disbelief that much, just set in a fantastical setting.


It's got bullets that can pierce van doors but not skin too! I don't think you're supposed to ponder the mechanics of Chisato too much. They even bring it up in ep3 and the reply is "waffle waffle, yeah she's basically magic". It's a bit early to say what else we're not supposed to think about too hard... possibly everything.

I kinda like the minor inversion of the usual buddy-cop dynamic where the serious by-the-book career oriented one is the pro-"murder everyone without due process" one while the free wheeling reject is the one that wants to treat her opponents with respect. (Excluding anyone who badmouths her new partner, she's got no respect for those jerks).

Chisato's constant high energy could easily grate, but I don't think it does so far. Despite all that bubble, she's actually provided some solid support and guidance to Takina over these first three episodes. Behind the playful flourishes and careless tone she's 100% serious. Very little of what she says is actually careless and unconsidered. In fact, so far she's a little bit too superhuman... she needs a flaw or two, or at least a vulnerability.

Coming back to not thinking too hard... the show circles around various darker themes. I think the it could stand to examine some of these without losing what makes it fun... but it's difficult to say with confidence that it will. Still, "Chisato kicks everyone's asses while flirting it up with Takina" is an entertaining enough way to spend 20 minutes on it's own I guess.
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09jcg



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:50 pm Reply with quote
This is a show where I feel like I should be liking it more than I am. I guess Chisato just doesn't do it for me like she does for everyone else. She isn't terrible, but she kind of comes off as a Mary Sue; which is by far my least favorite type of character. I also kind of bounce off of characters who are in extremely violent professions but decide to run around using paint bullets
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:51 pm Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
I tried the two first episode, but I had to nope hard when the girl was just casually walking between bullet. If you're going to ask me to suspend disbelief that much, just set in a fantastical setting.

Maybe I'll keep an eye on it to see if does go that way eventually, but for now ima pass or I'll just re watch gunsliger girl.


Well, we did have that Morgan Freeman and Angelina Jolie assassin fest movie, "Wanted", which was pretty much about that.
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dm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:47 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
dm wrote:
Chisato's schtick seems to be she can predict the paths of the bullets from the position of the gun as it is being fired (this will be my theory up to the point we see her do it when the shooter is behind her).

No need to have a theory about it; the commander outright says that at the 20:12 mark of episode 3. Of course, she'd also have to have incredible reflexes to take advantage of that insight.


Yes, that was how I interpreted that comment. The thing that underscored it was the memory of watching Chisato zip through whack-a-mole in the training montage earlier. They'd already shown her incredible reflexes.
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we love lain



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:09 pm Reply with quote
09jcg wrote:
This is a show where I feel like I should be liking it more than I am. I guess Chisato just doesn't do it for me like she does for everyone else. She isn't terrible, but she kind of comes off as a Mary Sue; which is by far my least favorite type of character. I also kind of bounce off of characters who are in extremely violent professions but decide to run around using paint bullets


I wouldn't consider Chisato a mary sue. Just because she's top-tier at combat in a way others aren't doesn't mean the show frames her as an infallible person. Chisato admits that she isn't as good of a long ranger shooter as Takina despite her superhuman capabilities. What's more, we can already see cracks in Chisato's approach to "non-violence" in combat as not only does Takina criticize her "tend to enemies as well" policy, but we see how said policy could have had some serious consequences, particulary in episode, where if it wasn't for the fact that the actual point of their mission was to fake Walnut's death, Chisato's insistence to tend to her enemies would have ended in horror. I wouldn't be surprised if later on in the series, Chisato's refusal to kill continues to pile on further complications, until one such complication costs the group something significant. Chisato may be great, but she's not idealized by the writing. She's compassionate, talented and loving, but she's also snarky, sarcastic, has a bit of a petty side. I wouldn't call that a mary sue. Now granted, how well Chisato's character continues to be explored is going to come down to what challenges the show throws at her to make her dilemma as a lycoris who refuses to kill more interesting.
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Ruhrpottpatriot



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:43 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I wouldn't consider Chisato a mary sue.

Many have the wrong idea of what a Mary Sue is. For most it's just a character, usually female, that can (or seems to) do everything and is loved by everyone.
What they fail to grasp is, that those people actually existed and exist. The first that come to mind are Augustus or Henry I of England.
The problem with those characters is not that they are such high-flyers, but how they got to the point. Lang Lang didn't just sit down at a piano and played Liszts Rondo Fantastique El Contrabandista perfectly on take one, nor did Diana Damrau ace her performance of Der Hölle Rache (seriously go watch her performance at the Royal Opera on YT and after that go watch her train for it. The first looks easy and at the second you can really see her struggle).
A Mary Sue gets bad, when the underlying work is not shown and there's no other explanation, like a higher-being intervening on the characters behalf.

So far Lycoris Recoil hasn't shown us much about Chisato's background, so I can understand some hesitance, but I'd wait a few more episodes to see if that clears up.
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09jcg



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:12 am Reply with quote
Ruhrpottpatriot wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't consider Chisato a mary sue.

Many have the wrong idea of what a Mary Sue is. For most it's just a character, usually female, that can (or seems to) do everything and is loved by everyone.
What they fail to grasp is, that those people actually existed and exist. The first that come to mind are Augustus or Henry I of England.
The problem with those characters is not that they are such high-flyers, but how they got to the point. Lang Lang didn't just sit down at a piano and played Liszts Rondo Fantastique El Contrabandista perfectly on take one, nor did Diana Damrau ace her performance of Der Hölle Rache (seriously go watch her performance at the Royal Opera on YT and after that go watch her train for it. The first looks easy and at the second you can really see her struggle).
A Mary Sue gets bad, when the underlying work is not shown and there's no other explanation, like a higher-being intervening on the characters behalf.

So far Lycoris Recoil hasn't shown us much about Chisato's background, so I can understand some hesitance, but I'd wait a few more episodes to see if that clears up.
I mean, I would argue I have an excellent idea of what a Mary Sue is.

Quote:
Mary Sue is a type of fictional character, usually a young woman, who is portrayed as unrealistically free of weaknesses.[1] Originating in fan fiction, a Mary Sue is often an author's idealized self-insertion. Mary Sue stories are often written by adolescent authors.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

So far she seems to have no weaknesses. She can dodge bullets, she's can extraordinary skills in a gun fight, she has a winning personality designed to absolutly appeal to the widest possible audience. While Im sure people like that can exist, they are few and far between and make for dull television. I see no flaws with her, and that is very very boring as far as I'm concerned. It's still early and I certainly hope there's more to her than meets the eye but the extent she went to in the latest episode to get the other girl reinstated made me groan; especially since opening fire with a machine gun while someone is being held hostage probably should be grounds for suspension.

we love lain wrote:
09jcg wrote:
This is a show where I feel like I should be liking it more than I am. I guess Chisato just doesn't do it for me like she does for everyone else. She isn't terrible, but she kind of comes off as a Mary Sue; which is by far my least favorite type of character. I also kind of bounce off of characters who are in extremely violent professions but decide to run around using paint bullets


I wouldn't consider Chisato a mary sue. Just because she's top-tier at combat in a way others aren't doesn't mean the show frames her as an infallible person. Chisato admits that she isn't as good of a long ranger shooter as Takina despite her superhuman capabilities. What's more, we can already see cracks in Chisato's approach to "non-violence" in combat as not only does Takina criticize her "tend to enemies as well" policy, but we see how said policy could have had some serious consequences, particulary in episode, where if it wasn't for the fact that the actual point of their mission was to fake Walnut's death, Chisato's insistence to tend to her enemies would have ended in horror. I wouldn't be surprised if later on in the series, Chisato's refusal to kill continues to pile on further complications, until one such complication costs the group something significant. Chisato may be great, but she's not idealized by the writing. She's compassionate, talented and loving, but she's also snarky, sarcastic, has a bit of a petty side. I wouldn't call that a mary sue. Now granted, how well Chisato's character continues to be explored is going to come down to what challenges the show throws at her to make her dilemma as a lycoris who refuses to kill more interesting.
I think k alot of what you mentioned actually reinforces my point. Let's take the snark for example. That stuff is essentialy tailor made waifu bait aimed specifically to appeal to a male demographic. It's not portrayed as a negative trait within the show, but as a positive where she gets things done that the establishment can't handle. As for the mission where the intent was for walnut to be shot, she essentially had her cake and ate it too. Not only did she save the life, she accomplished the mission. I didn't see that scene as an indictment of her non-violence philosophy. If they do go that angle though, I will gladly retract my statement as that would be an interesting direction for the show to go.
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we love lain



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:16 pm Reply with quote
09jcg wrote:
I think a lot of what you mentioned actually reinforces my point. Let's take the snark for example. That stuff is essentialy tailor made waifu bait aimed specifically to appeal to a male demographic. It's not portrayed as a negative trait within the show, but as a positive where she gets things done that the establishment can't handle. As for the mission where the intent was for walnut to be shot, she essentially had her cake and ate it too. Not only did she save the life, she accomplished the mission. I didn't see that scene as an indictment of her non-violence philosophy. If they do go that angle though, I will gladly retract my statement as that would be an interesting direction for the show to go.


I kinda disagree with this honestly despite seeing why you would feel this way. Under any normal circumstances where it felt like the show writers were trying to write an "idealized" character, I'd agree with you, but it just doesn't feel quite apt here. Let's start with your point about the snark which, and I mean no disrespect by this, comes off as you projecting a personal bias about anime waifu bait just because Chisato already rubs you the wrong way. Perhaps her high genki energy had turned you off from the start and anything else that tried to validate her character as being endearing now comes off to you as making her too perfect. Again, it's just a thought and I could be wrong, but it's still worth considering that very plausible perspective could be influencing your outlook. You view Chisato's snark as manipulative writing, but under what narrative pretense exactly? None of the scenes where her snark comes out is ever portrayed as being positive or negative; like when she's acting petulant during her argument with Fuki: They're simply a neutral demonstration of her various relationships with people and the sides of her that come out based on which relationship she's engaging with. It's effective writing that fleshes her personality to be more dynamic as opposed to not. And yea, the shades in her personality are meant to make her feel more like a person so that you can appreciate her as a character. Your point about her snark being waifu bait doesn't feel like a strong argument because that's like saying any other character that's ever presented in a snarky way without giving a direct reason why it's a negative trait, is simply just bait to make them endearing. And I get it, framing it that way supports your point that Chisato is a mary sue because these kind of characters aren't written with flaws that negatively impact them; they're "flaws" that are a part of making them "the perfect character." Anyway, me pointing out her snark or pettiness or condescending nature at times was more so about illustrating how dynamic the series has taken her bubbly nature and infused dimensions to it. It's not anything deep yet, but it's basic 101 writing being executed well.

On your point about the failed mission, I said cracks; not a full on indictment which seems to be a narrative choice to let that conflict build as opposed to playing those cards right in the second episode; that indictment will probably come later based on well....general storytelling rules of set up and pay off. The story has at least made the conscious decision to visibly set up and literally called attention to Chisato's non-violence as a potential conflict, with Takina drawing attention to it in a negative light, one in which the narrative doesn't frame her as being entirely in the wrong for doing so. Even though Chisato ended up not having to fully deal with the consequences of her non-violence policy in a dangerous situation, we as the audience have now been primed with the experience that something like this can possibly happen again, and if so, Chisato might not just get away with a slap on the wrist. If the story is already setting this up as a conflict and alluding to how this may be tied to a darker backstory, then the writing is doing its job. The way you framed it, it's as if the episode ignored the conflict entirely and frames Chisato as being right, which it didn't.

The mary sue term doesn't just encompass the concept that the character has no weaknesses or is infallible. It also considers how the writer makes the characters in the story view the mary sue in question: does all the choices the mary sue make tend to be the right choice? Do the other characters exist simply to emphasize just how much more inferior they are to the mary sue? Does the mary sue happen to just know how to do most plot relevant things without any rhyme or reason other than "she's just great!" Are characters who don't agree with the mary sue or "worship" her viewed as always in the wrong? The whole, "has no weakness" is part of it for sure, but it's pretty nebulous on its own and can easily lead to someone projecting their feelings on to a character misaligning that term with a character who may not completely fit the bill. You found yourself groaning that about Chisato trying to help Takina get back into the good graces of the DA....but what does that have to do with her being a mary sue? I get that you might not agree with her vouching for Takina, but I wouldn't necessarily ascribe that to some problem in her character writing. Takina seemingly disobeyed orders, but she made a call on emotion to protect her comrade (albeit extremely recklessly), especially when we find out later that there was communication interference and that the lack of further directions instigated her to prioritize her comrade over the mission. At this point, Takina has been suspended for over a month and some change. Did you feel like Chisato was behaving self-righteously by asking Takina to get back in?

Is Chisato some deeply written protagonist? Not yet; has she been decently fleshed out by the writing in an organic manner? Yea, I would say so. Is she waifu bait? Well anyone can be thrown into that category, 3-dimensional or not, so scrutinizing this element requires more constructive criticism. Chisato being shown as an expert in combat above everybody else doesn't make her perfect; that's the only field in which she's shown to be better than others at, and like i mentioned before, Takina has been noted to be a better long-range shooter than her, with visual evidence to back this up.

Before I close this up ill ask this: if you've ever seen Trigun before, do you consider Vash the stampede a gary stu? if you do, why? If you didn't within the first 3 episodes, what did the writing do to convince you of his non-gary stu-ness that you find so different from Chisato.
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09jcg



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:36 pm Reply with quote
we love lain wrote:
09jcg wrote:
I think a lot of what you mentioned actually reinforces my point. Let's take the snark for example. That stuff is essentialy tailor made waifu bait aimed specifically to appeal to a male demographic. It's not portrayed as a negative trait within the show, but as a positive where she gets things done that the establishment can't handle. As for the mission where the intent was for walnut to be shot, she essentially had her cake and ate it too. Not only did she save the life, she accomplished the mission. I didn't see that scene as an indictment of her non-violence philosophy. If they do go that angle though, I will gladly retract my statement as that would be an interesting direction for the show to go.


I kinda disagree with this honestly despite seeing why you would feel this way. Under any normal circumstances where it felt like the show writers were trying to write an "idealized" character, I'd agree with you, but it just doesn't feel quite apt here. Let's start with your point about the snark which, and I mean no disrespect by this, comes off as you leaning into a particular bias about anime waifu bait just because Chisato already rubs you the wrong way. Perhaps her high genki energy had turned you off from the start and anything else that tried to validate her character as being cool now comes off to you as making her too perfect, or do you have a bias towards female anime characters who are written to have endearing qualities as they come off to you as tools to pander to a male audience, like you've labeled Chisato.
In regards to Chisato, its a totality of the circumstances type of situation. I dont have a paticular bias towards that character type per se, but its the very likealbe endearing character, coupled with her unending compassion, along with her incredible skills merged with a plot that seems to be saying she is in the right despite what the higher powers say. She honestly reminds me of Marin from Dress Up Darling, but while Marin had the insecurities pertaining to her romance keeping her from being too perfect (side note, I think Marin is a great character as is Yotsuba from quints so I dont have an issue with genki characters). Now take Marin, remove the insecurites, add wisdom beyond your years and incredible combat prowess and its too much for me.

Quote:
You view Chisato's snark as manipulative writing, but under what narrative pretense exactly? None of the scenes where her snark comes out is ever portrayed as being positive or negative; like when she's acting petulant during her argument with Fuki: They're simply a neutral demonstration of her various relationships with people and the sides of her that come out based on which relationship she's engaging with. It's effective writing that fleshes her personality to be more dynamic as opposed to not. And yea, the shades in her personality are meant to make her feel more like a person so that you can appreciate her as a character.
In the case with Fuki, I would argue its being shown in a positive light. At this stage in the plot Fuki is the "enemy". She has part of the system thats keeping Takina out of the agency.

Quote:
Your point about her snark being waifu bait doesn't feel like a strong argument because that's like saying any other character that's ever presented in a snarky way without giving a direct reason why it's a negative trait, is simply just bait to make them endearing. And I get it, framing it that way supports your point that Chisato is a mary sue because these kind of characters aren't written with flaws that negatively impact them; they're "flaws" that are a part of making them "the perfect character." Anyway, me pointing out her snark or pettiness or condescending nature at times was more so about illustrating how dynamic the series has taken her bubbly nature and infused dimensions to it. It's not anything deep yet, but it's basic 101 writing being executed well.
I mean, I guess were not going to be on the same page with this one. you say its wrting being done well, I honestly think its kind of terrible.

Quote:
On your point about the failed mission, I said cracks; not a full on indictment which seems to be a narrative choice to let that conflict build as opposed to playing those cards right in the second episode; that indictment will probably come later based on well....general storytelling rules of set up and pay off.
Perhaps but at this poin it in the story I haven't seen anything to make me think its leaning in that direction
Quote:
The story has at least made the conscious decision to visibly set up and literally called attention to Chisato's non-violence as a potential conflict, with Takina drawing attention to it in a negative light, one in which the narrative doesn't frame her as being entirely in the wrong for doing so. Even though Chisato ended up not having to fully deal with the consequences of her non-violence policy in a dangerous situation, we as the audience have now been primed with the experience that something like this can possibly happen again, and if so, Chisato might not just get away with a slap on the wrist. If the story is already setting this up as a conflict and alluding to how this may be tied to a darker backstory, then the writing is doing its job. The way you framed it, it's as if the episode ignored the conflict entirely and frames Chisato as being right, which it didn't.
Again I disagree, the narrative seems to be providing plot armor for Chisato, creating a scenario where even though she's wrong the plot will make it out so she's right. I could be wrong, but you haven't provided me with a convinccing argument saying otherwise.

Quote:
Is Chisato some deeply written protagonist? Not yet; has she been decently fleshed out by the writing in an organic manner? Yea, I would say so. Is she waifu bait? Well anyone can be thrown into that category, 3-dimensional or not, so scrutinizing this element requires more constructive criticism. Chisato being shown as an expert in combat above everybody else doesn't make her perfect; that's the only field in which she's shown to be better than others at, and like i mentioned before, Takina has been noted to be a better long-range shooter than her, with visual evidence to back this up.
I dont consider being less good at long range shooting to be much of a weakness when you can literally dance through gunfire and not get hit.
Quote:

Before I close this up ill ask this: if you've ever seen Trigun before, do you consider Vash the stampede a gary stu? if you do, why? If you didn't within the first 3 episodes, what did the writing do to convince you of his non-gary stu-ness that you find so different from Chisato.
Its been a very long time since I watched tri-gun, but I can say I disliked it and never finished it. I dont remember enough about it to consider Vash a gary stu but I can say that "Gary Stu" syndrome is a reason why I very much dislike battle shounens.

As for your other question fo if anythng can happen that will make me like Chisato the answer is yes. She needs to suffer a colosal failure. Had walnut actually died, that would have qualified but it got played off.
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we love lain



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:01 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
In regards to Chisato, its a totality of the circumstances type of situation. I dont have a paticular bias towards that character type per se, but its the very likealbe endearing character, coupled with her unending compassion, along with her incredible skills merged with a plot that seems to be saying she is in the right despite what the higher powers say. She honestly reminds me of Marin from Dress Up Darling, but while Marin had the insecurities pertaining to her romance keeping her from being too perfect (side note, I think Marin is a great character as is Yotsuba from quints so I dont have an issue with genki characters). Now take Marin, remove the insecurities, add wisdom beyond your years and incredible combat prowess and its too much for me.


That's pretty cool that you understand why a character like Marin isn't a mary sue or simply a wish fulfillment character, even though a character with an endearing nature like hers allows for others to project on to her their wish-fulfillment fantasies. You have people who don't seem to like Marin much and their argument for that stance boils down to: "Oh she's just waifu bait for the male audience" and "Her romance with Wakana is contrived because it's not realistic for Marin to like a guy like him; Marin just loves Wakana because he's a self-insert character that otaku losers are supposed to project upon." Like damn, so now it's unrealistic for a beautiful female to like a tall, sort of handsome-looking introvert with a legitimate skill who validates her interests and shows her the level of genuine interest in her hobbies she hasn't been able to receive even from her normal gaggle of friends....there almost seems to be this negative mindset that an endearing character just has to be a mary sue/gary stu, and that almost every cute anime girl is nothing more than male otaku bait; that's where we are now these days with this kind of discourse. That being said, I'm curious as to how you were able to give Yotsuba a pass given that it can be argued that her flaws, especially in the beginning come off as more endearing than them being presented like actual flaws, making her fit the role of perfect Waifu. If anything, that's all the more reason why I preferred Miku (yea, yea I know everyone did, but for good reason); at least Miku had layers that were gradually explored as the narrative progressed (she and Ichika).

But bringing it back to Chisato, while she's wise, I'm curious why you'd label her wisdom: "wise beyond her years". She's a lycoris who the narrative clearly implies has been through circumstances that have reinvented her thinking to how it is now. She wants independence from the DA because, if the metaphor wasn't clear enough, she's about to be 18 soon and it's time for her to fly from the nest and be independent. Her wisdom feels justified given her background but still in line with her age range. I'm curious as to examples you can cite to corroborate your feelings about her being wise beyond her years.

Quote:
n the case with Fuki, I would argue its being shown in a positive light. At this stage in the plot Fuki is the "enemy". She has part of the system thats keeping Takina out of the agency.


I don't think the priority of showing something as plot-irrelevant as Chisato and Fuki behaving like bickering friends was the show's continued attempt at making Chisato be the perfect waifu; that's a bit of reach I feel. Chisato's snark towards Fuki is more so a function of their rival-esque relationship. This would be the case whether or not the ethics of Takina's transfer was on the line. We know from episode 1 that Chisato and Fuki go way back and their frenemy relationship being put on display is simply fleshing out their personalities. Now Chisato defending Takina is shown in a positive light because yea of course it is: whether or not you think she deserved a more severe punishment for disobeying orders, the other lycoris are resorting to ridiculing her and Chisato wants to defend the honor of her friend; that's a positive trait: Chisato has been working with Takina for a month now and is attached to her, of course she wants to defend her: of course we as the viewer are meant to see her as being in the right. I don't man; I'm just struggling to understand why that rubs you the wrong way.

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I mean, I guess were not going to be on the same page with this one. you say its wrting being done well, I honestly think its kind of terrible.


And that's cool; I'd just have an easier time getting behind your thought process on why the writing is terrible if you didn't just leave your reason at "it's terrible.". You think fleshing out other dimensions of characters' personality traits by showing how they bounce off another character is terrible? In the interaction between Fuki and Chisato, we learn that Fuki is slightly struggling with valuing her own personal desires and following the creed of the DA blindly; meanwhile, we see that Chisato took leave of the DA because she hoped to be more independent and values her freedom from them, and wouldn't mind Fuki being a part of that. Keep in mind that Chisato disliking how the DA handles things isn't exclusive to her; this is a sentiment shared by both Mizuki and Mika as well, as we see in episode 1 for their own personal reason. They're all together in that Cafe because something happened that changed how they chose to live their lives going forward. All of this is illustrated through organic character interaction instead of stilted, oddly-placed exposition; and through all that, we're also shown the competitive nature of Chisato and Fuki's relationship, giving us extra insight to who these characters are. The writing shows skill not only with pacing the information, but by providing information that contextualizes how the characters think and feel about their situation. It provides insight through character mannerisms and behavior, opening up potential narrative nexus points for the future. So now I'm interested in understanding why you think all of that is terrible writing.

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Again I disagree, the narrative seems to be providing plot armor for Chisato, creating a scenario where even though she's wrong the plot will make it out so she's right. I could be wrong, but you haven't provided me with a convinccing argument saying otherwise.


Yea, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. I mean, the setup to me is as plain as day. Guess we'll know who ended up being right. in about 7 to 8 weeks. The track record for this kind of stuff just screams "conflict will be readdressed at a later time." The show just introduced the idea of Chisato's non-lethal life style in episode 1. As a story writer, why would I blow my load too soon and immediately undermine that when I'd get so much more catharsis by building a false sense of security through the character relationships before reintroducing that conflict back in some kind of fashion? Either Chisato fails to save a person during a mission, someone gets severely hurt because she stopped to save someone's life, someone is forced to kill to protect her, or she ends up killing someone.

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I dont consider being less good at long range shooting to be much of a weakness when you can literally dance through gunfire and not get hit.


I get it: you think her being able to dodge gunfire undermines her less than proficient long range gunning skills, but that doesn't invalidate my counterpoint that she's not portrayed as being good at everything that is plot relevant. The fact that Chisato can assess a situation and be like: "Eh, I don't think I'm capable of hitting the target from that far; Takina can you handle that for me?" despite her superhuman skills is actually quite humble for someone who can perform the feats she can. The fact she herself acknowledges the extent of her abilities grounds her just enough to allow her combat dynamic with Takina to really shine and lead to interesting fight choreography. But most notably, it's the idea that she openly acknowledges it provides the character that smidge of humanity. If she's going be written to be an ideal combat machine, why not allow her to also be the best damn long-shot in all of the DA? If Chisato is so perfect at combat, why not just let her also be a great sniper as well? If we're gonna push your mary sue claim further, why not make her a great cook too? Or have a high-level understanding of computers? Or an extremely skilled driver? Or a genius tactician? Or a good actor and liar for covert-type missions (she wears her emotions too openly on her sleeves to possess the know-how to do that correctly) Oh right, she's none of those things; her schtick is just being extremely adept at combat rather than being a jack-of-all trades character.
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dm
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Joined: 24 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:33 pm Reply with quote
I'm usually too lazy for wall-o-text forum posts, but you raise a number of interesting points about the series and its writing, "we love lain" (e.g., the strength of the "showing, not telling").

So even if you don't end up convincing 09jcg, and even if I'm not actually interested in settling the "Is Chisato a Mary Sue?" question, you should know that your efforts aren't entirely wasted.
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