Forum - View topicMalevolent Spirits: Mononogatari (TV) (w/ index).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23814 |
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Episode 18
Botan is quite the crafty little politician. Actually, I believe her when she says her motivation to help out is based on her need to be doing something as opposed to just sitting around, but conveniently there is a big benefit to getting face time with the Kadomori crew. They view her as a nuclear bomb that could go off at any second, so getting out there and having them see a cute young woman being helpful is just smart politicking... er, I mean, good sense. Poppa Kadomori may think the clan is in the catbird seat with her but I don't think he fully understands exactly what he has by the tail. Nice cliffhanger, btw. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2866 |
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#18
Without Hyouma and Nagi having a practice bout this week, this could easily pass as another episode with no action. The animators are following through with their changes, since spoiler[Hyouma did just fine using his siblings' weapons against Nagi in the source material. Doesn't affect the overall result though, as Nagi trusts Hyouma enough after their short bout.]. More insight into Botan's importance to the Tsukumogami and why humans are so eager to keep control of her if possible. When Kadomori tells Botan all of his indentured Tsukumogami drop everything and bow to the light, that is a BIG thing since under normal circumstances they have little to no free agency when on the job. Kadomori had a small group under him when he tested Hyouma, and if the same thing happened again during the trial they would have disobeyed orders and done exactly the same thing. However one perceives Botan's course of action after her guardians are summoned away, one cannot deny how effective it is at effecting change. If she had reverted to type and done nothing like a caged prisoner, it would not have changed the status quo. Making herself useful to the Kyoto Organization makes those around her think twice about how to approach her as well as their pre-conceived assumptions about her, and if it gets them round to her side it improves her situation compared to if she didn't take any action. Calculated or not as it might seem to anime-only viewers, it is a proactive way of managing her situation regardless of the motives being second-guessed by viewers. Botan's little exchange with the Trio also reveals just how much of an influence Hyouma is having on her as she is on him. Admitting to acquaintances that you'd rather act rather than do nothing and that the motivation for doing so stems partly from someone else who does exactly the same thing given the circumstances is significant for Botan; it is doubtful she would be so open to strangers if asked at the start of the story. This is the same Botan who doesn't talk about her family more than necessary when they are seen together in public. I expected the episode to finish the way it did; more or less the only stopping point I could think of for this episode. Two relatively peaceful weeks after the initial encounter with the Umbrellas, now to see what viewers make of the material to come. |
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Edjwald
 Posts: 1160 |
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Welp, humans are rarely 100% pure. I suspect that even the best ones have to sort through way too much complex bs - outright fears, anxieties, petty jealousies, resentments, temptations, insecurities, etc - while trying to enjoy or express the good stuff. It's why we use the words "self-consciousness" as something bad even though logically, that word pairing should be good. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the first thing they did was cover themselves. But - and I think this is part of what you're saying - there's nothing wrong with doing a good thing while being aware of your own self-interests. At least, it's better than doing nothing because you're not perfect, or doing a bad thing with justifications. And coming back to that human connection thing - I can't remember the exact wording, but when Haori was talking about Botan's unwanted guest situation, she said something about how isolation from human connection was an important part in freeing the maributo (?) and deepening her ties with humanity was important to sealing it, which was why finding a true love (Hyoma) would be a safety lock. Botan forging some relationships with her hostile warders can't hurt in that regard, especially since she's being isolated from her college buddies. |
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b-dragon
Posts: 462 |
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I like the term "enlightened self-interest" for Botan's decision. It is done for her benefit, both to get her out of her own head and to forge relationships among those who view her with hostility (the way to someone's heart is through their stomach, etc, etc,) but there's no reason what benefits her cannot benefit others as well.
And the character development has been solid too, particularly with the leads. Its been gratifying to watch these two scarred kids open up to and learn from each other, and the personalities around them. Probably my favorite aspect of the show. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23814 |
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I will say my invoking of Wile E. Botan was mainly tongue in cheek. Botan has been firmly established as a Japanese "good girl" and Japanese good girls rarely have guile as part of their bag of tricks. However, there is no question the show itself wants us to know that Botan is making allies which could be a problem for Poppa Kadomori if he ever decides the boom needs to be lowered on the lass. His outfit probably won't be so keen to get rough with a cutie pie who cooks, tends to their wounds and otherwise makes herself useful.
It's not clear to me how aware Botan and the Bridal Trousseau are about the potential threat posed by the Kadomori group. They seem more focused on the Paper Umbrella contingent and other unfriendly factions as opposed to worrying about how her new erstwhile "guardians" may act towards her in the future. Hyoma, of course, is utterly clueless. He's the mook who readily accepted Poppa Kadomori's explanation back in Part 1 that they were "testing" him as opposed to trying to turn him into a puppet aimed at taking out Botan. If Poppa Kadomori had been smart he would have put Botan under virtual house arrest and not allow her to freely circulate within the compound - all the while justifying it as a "protective" measure. As I say, I think he will come to regret not nipping her charm offensive in the bud. I was pleasantly surprised that he chose not to exert a baleful influence over Botan by admitting that the notion that she might have been indirectly responsible for the original appearance of Paper Umbrella is just a theory. He's such a bastard, I could have easily imagined him presenting this theory as fact, just to make her feel guilty and thus perhaps ensure a certain level of pliability. Good for him for passing up that kind of emotional leverage. |
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Edjwald
Posts: 1160 |
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Don't forget, his wild card of a daughter was in the office too. She's directly undermined him or shot him down when he was trying to act as he pleased on multiple occasions. It would have seriously undermined his clout if he'd made a play like that and Tsubaki had leaned over and gone "Oi,, Botan! Don't listen to this old fart! You have to remember that ...." And while I don't have a great understanding of Tsubaki's character, I'd say the odds of that happening would have been at least 3 to 1 in favor. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23814 |
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I have to assume that Tsubaki was there with his foreknowledge and consent. If he'd wanted to make a deal out of the theory and was leery of how Tsubaki would react to that, he could easily have told Botan when his troublesome daughter wasn't around.
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Edjwald
Posts: 1160 |
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You don't have to assume it because logic compels you to do so. You have to assume it because otherwise your hastily constructed argument falls apart. Since Tsubaki's been clinging to Botan and/or Hyoma like stink on rice, it's entirely feasible that she followed Botan in there before something could be arranged since its early days. Or that she took Botan into his office because Botan wanted to see him without asking permission. Of that she barged in unexpectedly while she was supposed to be somewhere else. And even if that weren't true, your assumption that the old fart is some kind of tactical genius (or even half as competent in scheming as he thinks he is) seems pretty far fetched based on the evidence. He hadn't even done the bare minimum of real research on Hyoma before he sprang his ill judged ambush. That's just arrogance. He's also been getting his ass outmaneuvered and ambushed left and right in battles lately. Cunning and shameless isn't the same as competent. On the other hand, we do know that he's arrogant and overestimates himself. Remember that sexy cover on the catalog for ghost fighting clothes that his clan puts out? |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23814 |
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If you think I think that Poppa Kadomori is some kind of tactical genius, you haven't been reading me very closely (shame on you). I've already figuratively slapped his fingers for letting Botan steal everybody's hearts right under his nose.
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Edjwald
Posts: 1160 |
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No, you did not. Assuming this might have given you the excuse to attack my innocent and earnestly helpful self like some brigandine: wink: , but the very premise of your house of assumptions and nefarious slanders is built on quicksand. Why on earth would you have to assume that Tsubaki was there with his consent? She refused to even offer him basic respect when he was trying to convince Hyoma to turn on Botan. Then she directly refused to help him turn Hyoma into some kind of talsiman driven slave after his attempts to subdue Hyoma failed. It's been clear from the outset that Tsubaki does what she wants, says what she wants, and goes where she wants, It would have been entirely within her nature to just show up, and I doubt he would have risked his dignity by trying to call her on it. I don't know it a hundred percent, but given what a control freak he is (enslaving people and spirits and such) I doubt he would humor her if Tsubaki wasn't the most powerful exorcist around. You also don't have to assume that Tsubaki couldn't have been there without his foreknowledge. And before you offer up some feeble sally like "Now to someone of your limited means, it might seem impossible for a father to know where his daughter is going to be" just consider: By your own admission,..Kodomari is keeping Botan under "protective custody." And as the head of his clan, he wasn't even able to keep track of a potential enemy who contains a dangerous spirit inside her well enough to not be surprised when she started working in his kitchen. Yep. You have no choice but to assume a meticulous, painstaking, detail oriented watchdog like him was tracking Tsubaki 24/7 alright. Anything else would be against all reason and precedent. Then you add this little tidbit with all the self assuredness of an ancient Roman selling real estate in Pompeii
First of all, you're assuming that the fact that Kodomari didn't go down that route proves that he didn't want to. This is a classic example of a false premise. Jill wants to steal a cookie. She knows Denise will slap her hand if she tries. It doesn't mean Jill doesn't want the cookie. Second of all, you're assuming that Kodomari would have naturally (after all, you're being forced to assume this) planned to tell Botan the lie in advance. It couldn't have occurred to him,after she asked him about it in the anime. Ipso facto, you're treating him as a someone who thinks things out in advance and could not have been taken by surprise (What? Botan's working in the kitchen?" or have a sudden impulse ( this heir to another powerful faction hurt my pride - attack him and make him a mindless slave). You're also assuming that if Kodomari had made plans, they wouldn't have gone awry. Which one of his plans that we know of has worked flawlessly so far? The Hyoma one didn't. The plan to use those tsukomogami that came from torture instruments didn't. The Botan thing is still in progress, and it doesn't seem to be going well. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23814 |
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I have never denied my belief that Tsubaki was present with her father's foreknowledge/ consent is an assumption. As is yours that she wasn't there with his foreknowledge/consent. So let's just look at it logically. If he didn't want there, why would the show not indicate that? You are positing that Kadomori didn't want her there and yet the show didn't bother to dramatize that in any way? That makes ZERO sense. Now look at it my way. I.e. that he was not bothered by her presence or inhibited from trying to guilt trip Botan. Under that assumption, the fact no mention is made of his irritation or being bothered by not being able to guilt trip Botan makes PERFECT SENSE since such a thing was never intended by the show.
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11304 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Guys. There is such a thing as too much banter. You can theorize all you want, but please town down the banter. Thanks.
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Edjwald
Posts: 1160 |
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I can quite honestly say that I have never once cared about Kodomari’s consent or foreknowledge one way or the other. Just to be clear, Kodomari is arrogant and careless enough to give his consent even if it was ill considered and might blow up in his face. He could have foreknowledge and cockily overestimate or misinterpret the data he has. He did both of those things in his first encounter with Hyoma and in his dealings with the Tsukumogami who evolved from instruments of torture.
And Tsubaki is enough of a wild card and has been sticking around Hyoma and Botan enough that anyone who’s been paying attention should be able to easily imagine a scenario where she was somewhere no one predicted, saw Botan being summoned, and showed up uninvited and unchallenged. It is an issue that has no practical value, and that hasn't mattered because we've been making a mountain out of a molehill for fun. What I pointed out was that Tsubaki’s presence might have been an impediment IF Kodomari wanted to start doing as he pleased, and I do truly believe that. I only started arguing about consent or foreknowledge because you tried to dismiss my point. Put another way, if what you were saying were truly logical, then why didn’t the author indicate that Tsubaki was there to undermine Botan? Why didn’t the author indicate that Tsubaki was there to support Botan? Why didn’t the author indicate that Kodomari invited Tsubaki there because he hopes that Botan will grow to trust her? Why didn’t the author indicate that Kodomari didn’t invite Tsubaki there because he’s a little uncomfortable about how close his daughter is keeping to Botan, deep down. and he’s a little worried about her getting caught up in the near certain tragedy awaiting Botan? I toss all those out there because I'm just trying to show that there are a lot of important issues and possibilities that don't get clarified in one scene on demand, and we could just as easily have argued about any of them, or a dozen other topics, and you could have just as easily framed the same question around any of them. Tons of things are always left open to interpretation because it makes it more interesting and more likely that fans will get in debates. Tsubaki being uncontrollable and Kodomari not showing irritation has been a regular occurrence in this anime. Again, when Kodomori asked Tsubaki if she was going to help him out after his attempt to corrupt/enslave Hyoma fell through, she refused. He definitely cared. Kodomari was left in a very awkward situation, and I'm pretty sure there was anime sweat beading down his brow and everything. But I didn't rewatch the scene so I can't swear to that last part. He only talked his way out of it because Hyoma is naïve. And yet, oddly enough, Kodomari didn’t show irritation at his daughter even though it definitely mattered to him. In the latest episode, shortly before the scene we’ve been talking about: (1) Tsubaki busts in the room and takes Kodomari by surprise - proving that she is prone to do this. (2) Tsubaki takes Hyoma away while pretending to ask her father for permission, but she leaves before he can answer. Proving that she doesn’t care about his consent. (3) And Kodomari sits there staring blankly after she’s left before saying " …well…fine?" And oddly enough, he doesn’t show any irritation at her blatant disrespect for his authority or any sign of intending to discipline her. The author doesn’t have to go out of his way to prove their dynamic because he’s consistently demonstrated it over and over in the show. Even in the same episode. What he hasn't demonstrated, ever, is that Tsubaki is obedient or that Kodomari can rein her in. I could just as easily ask why the author doesn’t indicate that Tsubaki was cooperating with Kodomari. By your argument, if that really was an issue (and I don't think it is) the author certainly should have done so because there hasn't been any support for this assumption. Anyway, I enjoyed crossing sabers and I hope to do so again at some point, but I'm calling this one in. Feel free to get the last word in, pardner. : [EDIT: Toned down the banter. -TK] Last edited by Edjwald on Thu Aug 10, 2023 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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smurky turkey
Posts: 1992 |
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As interesting as your whole discussion is, I am far more interested in the umbrella side of things. Say they kill/capture Botan her family and make her somehow lose control because of that. She then turns into their god of sorts. What is the plan after that? Taking over the world? securing a safe place for them to live? Or maybe to throw open the portal with which the Tsukogami arrive on earth and thus start an invasion?
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23814 |
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@ Edjwald - I shall take you up on your generous offer to get the last word in on this vitally important issue! Before I do that though, I was struck by something you posted which seems to be that my use of the phrase "I have to assume..." elicited a reaction in you I never intended. It seems you interpreted that phrase as me saying, "There can be no other explanation, so don't even bother trying to come up with one." which wasn't my intent at all. Rather it was, "welp, I didn't see any indication that Poppa Kadomori was unhappy about Tsubaki being there, so I guess he either didn't care or was cool with it." It's possible that in the minds of the writers he was positively seething under the surface, but if that's true, it seems weird they wouldn't address it. Last word taken!
@ smurky turkey - it's funny but until reading your post I never even bothered thinking about what the Paper Umbrella Group's agenda is. At this point, we anime-only types don't know enough about them to do more than speculate, but if the theory that her inner marebito brought Paper Umbrella into existence is true, then it makes sense it would want to "free" that marebito permanently to worship. After that, destroying the world might just be for funsies. |
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