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xstylus wrote:

.hacker wrote:

Forgive me for asking, but what's the Kadokawa business model?

If I understand correctly, US companies become subcontractors instead of licensors. All rights are retained by the Japanese company. Instead of the US companies going to the Japanese, the Japanese come to the US companies. I don't know how revenues are divvied up in these types of deals, but I expect that it favors Kadokawa over the US company.

Examples of this have already been done many times. Take Haruhi for example. It is a Kadokawa product, but Bandai was subcontracted to handle production and distribution. Full Metal Panic FUMOFFU is the same thing. Funimation handled production and distribution, but it's a Kadokawa product, NOT a Funimation product. Kadokawa also tapped RightStuf/Nozomi to handle Third: Girl with the Blue Eye, so they seem to be checking out all of the US companies. I imagine they'll eventually start feeding future work to whichever company they were most satisfied with.

Zac, please correct me if I'm off base on any of the above.

CORRECTION!!!!!!

you mean The Second Raid, not FUMOFFU, thought i'd clarify that

and NOW that you mention it, Kadokawa has been appearing on my purchases(Haruhi, TSR).

But in doing this, will it have any bearing on the overall market strain caused by the illegal anime market? (Just a thought from a long time buyer)

Zac wrote:

Thanks, but just to clarify, I'm harsh against the people who download everything, buy nothing and then act superior about it.

Fansubs in particular are, I believe, becoming a larger issue, but I've never just out-and-out said "argh I hate fansubs".

Also, ANN reports on people getting sued for anime copyright violations in Japan because it's newsworthy, not because we have some kind of anti-fansub agenda.

Well, that was mostly what I was referring to.... guess I should of elaborated. For all my ranting, I think it's moreso important we educate fans about the dangers of fansubs, and to provide them with information which they can then make an informed choice with [it's people's own business if they download, but I hate it when they tell me it's a) 100% harmless or b)preferable to official product. And then there's the people who'll rant about how The Evil Anime Industry is Out to Get Me].

[and then there's the people who whine when something gets licensed, even when it's from a company like VIZ or ADV or Bandai with a good track record. It makes a person bitter 0_o]

It's good that you guys do report about that, and don't really take a stance either way, as I don't like it when sites let personal tastes dictate what news they post- which leads to a lot of sites that spread misinformation about the legality of fansubs, or that ignore other things like Global Manga or Manwha news that might be interesting to fans [AnimeonDVD's gotten better about this then their stance a few years ago, but some sites still are kind of stupid about it.... ANN tends to continue posting reviews and news, which is great, and MangaCast is great for news of anything publishers release] [[[ and then there's some comic sites whose content is influenced by sponsorships---- more independent geek news is a good thing]]]

To add some good news, it's been leaked at AonDVD
http://animeondvd.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/23800/tp/25/
that subtitling work is occuring on Nanoha and Familiar of Zero.... so apparently, work is being continued on Geneon shows.

Which makes things look at a lot less bad, and makes Geneon's finishing their current series look more likely if they're working on new ones.

Paploo wrote:

To add some good news, it's been leaked at AonDVD
http://animeondvd.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/23800/tp/25/
that subtitling work is occuring on Nanoha and Familiar of Zero.... so apparently, work is being continued on Geneon shows.

Which makes things look at a lot less bad, and makes Geneon's finishing their current series look more likely if they're working on new ones.

I wish it was a more formal announcement, but it sounds promising. I'll take potential good news over bad news anytime.

Paploo wrote:

To add some good news, it's been leaked at AonDVD
http://animeondvd.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/23800/tp/25/
that subtitling work is occuring on Nanoha and Familiar of Zero.... so apparently, work is being continued on Geneon shows.

Which makes things look at a lot less bad, and makes Geneon's finishing their current series look more likely if they're working on new ones.

Well, that's certainly good news.

I'm personally concerned that Ergo Proxy 6, one of three releases scheduled for this week (today) from Geneon (according to AnimeOnDvd), may end up going the route of vaporware.

I went to Best Buy at lunchtime (since I want to support Best Buy continuing to carry anime). No volume 6 on on the shelves. Their RSS system said that there were 11 copies in the store, but they checked around and couldn't find them. Word comes back up to the customer service desk that the release date is 10/23.

Hoping that this is merely chain-store employee incompetence, I return to work.

The title appears to be in stock at Amazon, but Deep Discount is offering it for a lot less. Their site says, however, that the title is NOT in stock but will ship to me on 09/25 (today). I take the chance, because I'm cheap, and the DVD is $4 less from Deep Discount than Amazon.

However...now I'm wondering, considering the Geneon situation, if anyone has actually seen the 6th dvd on store shelves anywhere in the US.

All of the Best Buys around me tend to get anime late. Whether that means it shows up on time and they put it out late, or for some reason we're on the bottom of the Best Buy anime distribution pyramid, I don't know. But Ergo Proxy (and Black Lagoon, come to think of it) specifically has been coming in 2-3 weeks late around here, which is why I gave up and started ordering it online. It's one of a handful of series that I actually make time to watch when I get it. But I've also never seen a Best Buy have any new anime releases on the shelves before maybe 5:00 in the evening anyway- I'm pretty sure they're left until last just to annoy me. Ok, no I'm not.

I also notice some discrepancies in how their stock tracking system works. I think what happens is that they check stuff in by the packing box, so as soon as somebody scans it, it goes into the system as "in stock". I think some places scan a shipment and then start putting it on the floor, and other places scan as they open the boxes, so only the boxes they've opened are "in stock". So if they scanned all their boxes but haven't opened them, it's possible that it was in stock, but they simply had no clue where to find it. Places I've worked in the past have done receivings both ways.

So I'll look when I hit a Best Buy tomorrow, but I wouldn't read too far into not having it at lunchtime on the release date.

That's a relief to hear that it might just be slow stocking (WalMart does this with mass market paperbacks - they are far cheaper than everyone else but the books often go on the shelves days later than bookstores).

I've bought some anime DVDs on the date of release at Best Buy and been later on some others. And I likely would have waited on this one, if not for concerns about how long Geneon DVDs may actually be shipping.

Oh, well, while at Best Buy I got an up close look at the new iPod Nano, which I'm considering as a gift for my husband, so lunchtime wasn't a total waste (the iPod Touch was already sold out).

VEGANDARAE wrote:

But in doing this, will it have any bearing on the overall market strain caused by the illegal anime market? (Just a thought from a long time buyer)

I don't think such deals are an answer to the illegal anime market, nor is there an answer. I think such deals are an answer to escalating licensing costs that US companies are reluctant to pay.

With high licensing costs, it becomes difficult to get a good return on investment. Whoring themselves out as subcontractors and helping the Japanese companies release a title themselves sounds like a far better idea because it's less risky (I think) for the US companies. The only question is how lucrative such deals are for the US and Japanese companies.

Again, I'm going by surface observations on how the Kadokawa model appears to work, so take this at face value.

xstylus wrote:

VEGANDARAE wrote:

But in doing this, will it have any bearing on the overall market strain caused by the illegal anime market? (Just a thought from a long time buyer)

I don't think such deals are an answer to the illegal anime market, nor is there an answer. I think such deals are an answer to escalating licensing costs that US companies are reluctant to pay.

With high licensing costs, it becomes difficult to get a good return on investment. Whoring themselves out as subcontractors and helping the Japanese companies release a title themselves sounds like a far better idea because it's less risky (I think) for the US companies. The only question is how lucrative such deals are for the US and Japanese companies.

Again, I'm going by surface observations on how the Kadokawa model appears to work, so take this at face value.

useful insight, but from what I can tell, Kadokawa's methods do sound appealing, I mean this SHOULD leave more money in the US companies pockets right?

and I've been wondering something...just how much are the liscenses going for now anyway? Is it like tens of thousands of dollars, or am I still thinking small?

Last edited by Porcupine on Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:40 am; edited 2 times in total

I have no idea how much an individual license costs so I was not going to respond, but then it occured to me that it might be fun to try to guess based upon the Oricon numbers for Japanese DVD sales that someone posted about 5 pages back. Looking at the figures, it appears that an anime series that does well such as Haruhi Suzumiya or Fate/Stay Night sells about 200,000 total DVD copies in Japan for the entire series.

Let's say that retail price for one DVD in Japan is approximately 50 US dollars. I'll just guess but maybe half of that cost goes to the store that is physically selling the product, so maybe wholesale price is 25 US dollars. Of that cost, some of it must go to various middlemen but since the product is being made and sold in Japan there should be less middlemen, so maybe 20 dollars of that goes straight to the anime studio that made the show. So the anime studio might make approximately $4,000,000 for a series.

That doesn't take into account the money they get for showing their series on Japanese TV. I have no idea how much money the anime studio gets for allowing their show to be aired on TV, but I would guess it is comparable to the total amount of money they get for releasing their show on DVD, otherwise anime wouldn't be shown on TV. So let's double our previous figure and say that the anime studio makes approximately $8,000,000 for a successful series.

Also, I saw today some report on ANN that the Evangelion Movie has made roughly $10,000,000 so far at the box office, so this type of ballpark estimation seems to be reasonably working, at least for an order-of-magnitude estimation.

So then, here's the final question. How much would the Japanese anime studio ask to license out Fate/Stay Night or Haruhi for domestic release in the USA? Something of a similar magnitude seems logical I would say. Maybe somewhere in the ballpark of $1,000,000 as an up-front licensing fee payment, with potential for royalties if the title does exceptionally well to be tacked on later. That's for a blockbuster title though. For less popular titles, maybe $100,000? I could be wrong but $10,000 does not seem to be enough to worth the bother.

Keep in mind this is all just crude guessing on my part, by extrapolating what few numbers we've been given elsewhere. Here's another interesting way to look at the numbers. Maybe an average anime earns about $4,000,000 in Japan between both DVD sales and TV profits. If that is so, and if we say that approximately 200 people work at the anime studio and made that anime, then the average artist working there made $20,000 that year to live on, to buy food and stuff. I guess that sounds about right, at least to an order-of-magnitude.

that is quite logical in fact!

a BIG series would most likely have a BIG fee behind it, if a company really really wanted it, they'd shell out the big money for something that could possibly be that good!

but i wonder, if some of those so called lesser series broke the market after its effortless acquisition, like titles expected to do poorly suddenly shot to the top.

starcade wrote:

Keonyn wrote:

Seriously people, this is not a fansub debate, this is the last warning on this matter.

Then, kindly, what IS it???

Why is Geneon essentially going out of business, for all intent and purpose???

If it's because of fansubs causing the market to be horrifically inflated (as I and a number of other people believe), then this is a central crux to not only this story, but a number of other stories which are either happening now or probably imminent which will greatly alter the anime scene all over the world.

If it's not, then I would agree that this shouldn't be a fansub debate -- but then, as I asked before, what IS the story behind all this, then? Why is Dentsu wanting out of the North American industry completely?

This is a news article that has turned into a carnival that's what. It was a news article because that's what ANN does......post news relative to anime. Not yet another pointless fansub debate.

As for Geneon, that's not your business now is it. Get that through your head. You aren't part of them. You aren't a share holder. You simply buy their product and that doesn't give you the right to know about their personal dealings. That's like going to a con and buying an art print from someone and demanding to know about their personal bank records. Do zac and others know more then us? Sure, it's their job. They however are not going to commit career suicide and divulge personal insider information to you or us. And if you're demanding they do you're ignorant and rude because you're demanding they jeopardize their jobs to simply placate your needs. IF AND WHEN Geneon decides to say something public you'll know when the rest of us know.

And what you think about the market does not mean that's the truth or case here. that's what Y O U think. You can certainly think whatever you want but don't throw it on the rest of us and claim it's the truth when you don't know in this case. You're acting like a Doomsayer with this issue when there's no need for it. The anime industry and the world are not ending tomorrow. Take some Valium and and mellow out.

Quote:

Forget rain -- you just graduated to drawing an entire thunderstorm!!!

And you just graduated into 6th grade. I mean seriously with is this? You expect to be taken seriously when you want to post idle middle school retorts like this? Forget the Valium take some damn Morphine and get back to us in a few days when it wears off. Rolling Eyes

Dargonxtc wrote:

psycho 101 wrote:

Maybe ADV just didn't see enough profit in it for them because let's face it people anime is a business. And the object of a business is to make money and sell their product

I actually have my own theory on this, which I tried to get across in one of the various threads on this subject over the last two or so weeks. I am not going to bring it up again due to a fanatically vocal member that was directly and bullheadedly opposed to it. But needless to say that ADV probably saw the writting on the wall. And that writting wasn't necessarily that they couldn't make money(<---I am not saying you are wrong on this, you very well may be right, but it could have been something else).

True it could have been something else. Hell they might even have figured they'd get a lot of upset fans due to them taking over series from another company mid stride. I know that's unlikely but seriously though, maybe they did. Or maybe it was Geneon's doing. So many possibilities. I'd be interested if you'd PM me dargon with what you think the writing is ADV is seeing.

starcade wrote:

Of course, you can't ask Zac -- he's basically saying we shouldn't even ask things like that...

Get off it will ya. You're simply twisting his words to fit your opinions. Plus you haven't asked much of anything. You've simply overloaded the thread with your fansub is evil the anime industry is doomed crap. The forums are for debate, you're not debating. You're on your soap box telling us all that the end of anime is coming. Even in the smallest tiniest .0001% it is guess what? There world will go on.

Mohawk52 wrote:

Licenses are usually acquired by bidding from the various distributors who want that title on their catalogue. The highest bidder gets the nod. Bids are suppose to be confidential but leaks do happen and counter bids are always forthcoming if the title is a must have and the distributor has the bottle, and the readies to go for it. If Geneon goes belly up, all those licenses that they have will become void and will naturally go back to whoever originating studio first produced it. They then could retender it for bidding by the surviving distributors, which is what I would expect, or just shelve it in their archive.

Hopefully if no one does pick up their actual library of titles the companies with titles in mid production with Geneon will get them picked up elsewhere and finished and not just shelve them. Even with a mid run cast change it's still better then having a series in mid production not get finished at all. At least the Japanese track would remain the same with a mid run dub switch.

Quote:

Hopefully if no one does pick up their actual library of titles the companies with titles in mid production with Geneon will get them picked up elsewhere and finished and not just shelve them. Even with a mid run cast change it's still better then having a series in mid production not get finished at all. At least the Japanese track would remain the same with a mid run dub switch.

Are you serious?????????

would they really just change the cast in the middle of the run and not just let the studio finish it?

lj1958 wrote:

I'm personally concerned that Ergo Proxy 6, one of three releases scheduled for this week (today) from Geneon (according to AnimeOnDvd), may end up going the route of vaporware.

I went to Best Buy at lunchtime (since I want to support Best Buy continuing to carry anime). No volume 6 on on the shelves.....

I inquired and it seems that some of the October dates at Best Buy moved around because of something, but everything will eventually get there.

Fate Ltd with Clock is running late for some reason, one of those Geneon delays that they won't announce, but everybody will complain about.

What is Fate Ltd with Clock? Is that a limited edition of Fate/Stay Night Vol. 6?

BTW, amazon.com today says that Ergo Proxy Vol. 6 is in stock so it must have come out. Amazon doesn't lie.

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