Forum - View topic"Perverted" premises / stories...
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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I never saw the manga I don't read them. Wow -- after all that Aoki never does her? I'd say that was pretty damn virtuous except that each of those scenes you describe obviously has a purpose other than to titillate the viewer. What a lot of you guys seem to be caught up in is that of course there are a lot of retarded readers out there who jerk of to this and think to themselves that Aoki is the retard -- any real guy would be totally doing her by now. And her friends. Yeah so what -- they would think thoughts like that if the story was never drawn. Where I object is when someone say that's supposed to be the controlling event of what I am allowed to look at or not. But what Aoki clearly knows -- all these "horrifying" scenes are clearly intended to show -- is that the Rin character clearly has a precocious but necessarily immature view of what she is doing and he is doing his best to cope with it in a way that is constructive for Rin first and himself second. This is of course an extreme case of what would happen in real life although I have seen girls Rin's age that act like that (not as extreme, but this is an ANIME remember?) I really did not intend to start yet another debate thread rehashing these same old talking points again. The only point I want to make is regardless of whether KnJ gives jollies to lolicons or not it does have some clear and worthwhile purpose other than that. If you measure the quality of anime stories as to how they depict or relate to what might happen in real life, then KnJ ranks very high. If you subscribe to the idea that any depiction of juvenile sexuality is harmful to society and must be despised and/or repressed at every opportunity and no matter what, then KnJ ranks very low. KnJ was also clearly designed to provoke the extreme (I say hysterical) reactions you see just like Pavlov's dog salivating for the purpose of promoting itself and also to get the point across. If you despise that aspect of it just say so. Enough of this today. |
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TheSwedishElf
Posts: 300 |
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Mhmm. Sure thing. KnJ is a big friggin' masterpiece and a mirror of real life that we should all learn a meaningful lesson from. |
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ArsenicSteel
 Posts: 2370 |
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By imitation you mean there's none and the strength of impact relies on the imagination of the viewer. That settles it. Ban sexual imagination. |
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TheSwedishElf
Posts: 300 |
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Wow. There's naive and then there's...this. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Not to feel like you're being ganged up on, but I despise this argument by KnJ fans, especially when they use it to excuse common sense acceptability in specific situations. I never made it past the first episode because Aoki allowed Rin to suck his finger over a bleeding scratch. I didn't find the scene sexual in nature, but the fact she closes her eyes while doing it isn't something a reasonable person can dismiss. At this stage in the story, Aoki is not aware of Rin's background, a fact he later discovers after another incident finally clues him in something's up. This allows me to introduce context, a very, very important element to how people approach stories delivered to them. Context can change an innocent "blood sucking" scene into a vile application of child pornography. I absolutely loved the series Mitsudomoe. It was funny (once it got past the urine jokes) because context was properly applied to introduce a joke regarding a girl's panties and the reasons why boys want to see them and it never delivered it through blatant fanservice. Context also allowed me to forgive quite a bit of Lotte's Toy, right up until the final episode when a grown man tells a 10 year old girl he's in love with her. Yes, it's all fiction. I understand none of it is real. It still doesn't excuse the fact these stories impact us emotionally, all of which is governed by our ability to apply context. I know many made it past episode 1 of KnJ and I have no problem believing there's a decent story in the series. A story I will never enjoy for myself because I can never get past an elementary school teacher allowing a student to suck his finger, an act guaranteed to get his ass beat in real life because there's no justification for the interaction, sexual or not. Notice I never accuse(d) those who enjoy KnJ to be pedophiles, or are a "targeted audience". I know better than this. A pedophile sure isn't going to waste their time with this series when the internet can deliver them content much more to their tastes as an unfiltered image search on "lolicon" will deliver. Warning: Very NSFW and if you do this, get caught, and are fired, well, tough shit, stupid. I know Rin has problems, but it'll never be worth it to me to watch the story if it means I have to tolerate unacceptable scenes in exchange. It's time some KnJ fans accept this and move on, rather than trying to put the blame on the rest of us, some of whom are not calling those who enjoy the series "pedos". Irrelevant side note: I wish Mitsudomoe were licensed. It sucks the series tanked, but I'd |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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@ArsenicSteel
By imitation I mean that there's nothing much left for imagination if you're familiar with oral sex and know what the manga is about. This is not exactly "anything can be a phallus" situation. Fellatio or not, it is meant to be viewed as such. Actually I'm not against that scene in the context of the story. The bathhouse scenes would be more questionable imo. In general I find some of the nudity in the manga to be distasteful but I have no problem with it existing. However if the mangaka really wants to talk about the sexuality of thirdgraders, I don't think this is the best way to do it. Any work with that theme would be controversial but showing pre-teen nudity in a way that can be seen as suggestive and unnecessary only gives ammo to those who'd rather see the manga cancelled. It might also discourage quite a lot of people who simply don't want to see naked lolis even if they're interested in the premise. |
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Anymouse
 Posts: 685 |
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I really do think that AresenicSteel is trolling us.
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ArsenicSteel
Posts: 2370 |
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Yet there is no right way ever and there will always be people being offended if the wind blows up their skirts the wrong way. This supposed ammo given to people who want the series to end is just more crap about their sensitivities being violated, in order words just more ignorable whining. The premise of the story is about children growing into their future sexual roles-- wanting to see naked lolis isn't needed or expected but such scenes aren't foreign to this sort of story. Girls going out to find a bra with a scene of a topless, but still PG-13 obscured breasts, girl would not be out of place and is perfectly fitting the context. The ensuing thoughts from that scene could range from memories of shopping for a trainer to visions of what one would do with them funbags.
What I've been doing was pointing out that an imitation of an act is not the act itself. Anyone unfamiliar with the act or wording itself that "fellating a cow's udder" would create the question what is fellating and the only answer would be nothing to do with a cow's udder. Enough of this pissant moral compass waving. With the could ole' ambiguous and ever changing laws around obscenity I think we are all just a pounding of the gavel away from drinking a glass of hemlock just to end the pain and embarrassment. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Would you disagree that if there's a possibility to make less people offended, one should take it? Lolita is about a controversial subject too. It was much tamer and I don't think you'll find many that will say that it is a lesser work because of that. |
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Gon*Gon
 Posts: 679 |
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Lolita was still far more infamous.
Why? People who want pictures banned are the same types who will be offended by pretty much anything to begin with. More importantly, why should an artist hold herself back just so they can avoid offending a few people who spends all their time finding reasons to ban a series of drawn images? Not to mention, changes will offend anyone. You'll appease a few more people by removing all the sexuality, but at the same time you'll piss off a similar amount of people for the exact same reason. Why should a group that isn't reading this material take priority over a group that's already reading it? |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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@Gingin
Lolita is far more infamous because it is far more famous. And it is considered a classic. Why? Because I believe that having this much nudity and obvious racy content in general is counterproductive to mangaka's goal if she really wants her manga to be known for its story and not its controversy. It will be controversial anyway (since you can't completely ditch the racy parts), it will get the publicity anyway (since people will still try to ban it), but less people might be disgusted by the content and actually buy and read it. |
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Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
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You hit the nail on the head.
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Gon*Gon
Posts: 679 |
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And you'll also piss off the portion of the readers who happen to like the racy humor. Like I said, appeasing those who read your work vs. appeasing those who won't even give it a chance. And how perverted something is would be subjective. How much will she have to tone down her materials until it's enough to appease those who complain about a series they don't even read while keeping the feel of her intended story? Some people feel that KnJ at it's current level of fanservice is just right. Remember, Kodomo No Jikan is also an ecchi series. Racy comedy contributes a vital part of this series enjoyment. PS - I should also note that I am against ANY form toning down materials just to make it more marketable, be it sexual, violent, non-PC, or racially controvesial. For example, Viz's original plans to censor Dance In The Vampire Bund, censoring the cross in FMA, or butchering Dr. Slump by replacing africans with demons for some reason. Last edited by Gon*Gon on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ArsenicSteel
Posts: 2370 |
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I would argue that attempting not offend some unknown person's sensibilities above and beyond what is legally required would put the artist into a paradox if the work or parts of it are intentionally designed to be offensive in someway or another. Lolita is not tamer because Nabokov intentionally held anything back. The relative tameness came about because of the passage of time and the lack of pictures. As for the goals of the manga-ka. After Seven Seas put the kibosh on her story being published in America she said this; "my honest feeling is, 'It's unfortunate, but what can I do?'" While you or someone else might want your manga or books to be generic enough to ensure maximum profits, capitalism HOOO! This woman seems to be content with being able to express her ideas as she pleases and have them published domestically in an official or doujinshi form. If a prospective viewer is turned by what she wants in her story then so be it. Someone else will enjoy the story and that viewer will undoubtedly be able to find a story tame enough for their tastes elsewhere. |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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Well, in Aoki's own words "They say stuff like 'let's have sex' just because of their curisity. It's not like a child like that would actually know what lust really is.. which is why for any adult to take that behavior seriously and act upon it, it would only scar their minds and their bodies. There's no way that it would ever truly heal, and those who act upon it are unforgivable." |
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