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abunai wrote:

Nobody is forcing you to watch it, so if it bugs you, stop.

I watched the rest of the series hoping it would change. The series was rated fairly high at the time, so I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I would've been surprised by certain plot twists or character progressions? It worked for Angel Links and even Night Head Genesis.

But needless to say, I was sorely mistaken in this particular case. I'm sorry for "being mature" and trying to actually give it a chance, as opposed to stopping halfway, then "spewing my pointless anger." Because you know, it's more mature to "spew pointless anger" from an incomplete analysis, than from actually watching the whole thing and faulting a series for its overall construction.

I will take your advice and remember to be more discriminating in the future.

Tony K. wrote:

But needless to say, I was sorely mistaken in this particular case. I'm sorry for "being mature" and trying to actually give it a chance, as opposed to stopping halfway, then "spewing my pointless anger." Because you know, it's more mature to "spew pointless anger" from an incomplete analysis, than from actually watching the whole thing and faulting a series for its overall construction.

I will take your advice and remember to be more discriminating in the future.

If it saves me from having to listen, again, to your expressed desire for something to hit... good. You, my man, need a punching bag.

- abunai

Tony K. wrote:

That kind of moe I can really find endearing after a while. It's subtle, yet energetic, zany, though not too over-the-top, and has an overall feel-good experience to it (also see Chiyo-chan from Azumanga Daioh).

I have to agree with you on that. Chiyo-chan is pretty much my favorite endearing moe character in anime.

Ditto to others who said it's fine in small doses and how it's handled.

Zalis116 wrote:

Just because several series share the same element, it doesn't make them the same genre. Take"Giant Robots," for instance. Would you say that Evangelion, Godannar, Kirameki Project, Mazinger Z, Gundam Wing, Gravion, Magic Knight Rayearth, Burst Angel, and Maze: The Megaburst Space are the "same genre" just because they happen to have giant piloted robots? Same way with moe, it's not a genre, it's an element.

Element and genre are not mutually exclusive. The genre label can be a shorthand for a particular form, or it can be a shorthand for incorporation of an element in a particular set of manners. The keyword here is "shorthand." It is a mistake to read the genre label and attempt to interpret it as is. A science fiction is not simply a piece of fiction that contains science, nor is it a piece of fiction that contains fictional science. The science has to be sufficiently a sufficiently prominent element of the story for it to be classified under the science fiction label, and this generally means it has to be the most prominent element. The same is true of giant robots. Magic Knight Rayearth is not a giant robot series because its most prominent element is magical girl. There is a giant robot genre, but the giant robot element has to be sufficiently important for a series to be classified as such.

Quote:

If it means "presenting things in a way such that they appeal to a certain portion of a fanbase in hopes of making said fans buy the product," then I suppose moe is guilty as charged. But it's hardly the fan-pandering genre as you're classifying it. Aren't things like ultraviolence/exploding heads, mountains of otaku/culture references (which can be done without moe, see Excel Saga), hordes of homoerotically-affectionate bishounen, or the aforementioned giant robots also efforts by creators to appeal to certain sectors of the fanbase to entice them to buy product?

The keyword here is "fan." To accuse an element of fan-pandering, the element presented must primarily appeal to those who are already fans of the element or some closely related element. This necessitates a narrow appeal, as an element with broad appeal would not have as its primarily intended audience those who are already fans. Take giant robots: Each decade since at least the seventies had at least one giant robot series which is fondly remembered as a childhood memory by a large fraction of the population that grew up during that period, which is not at all surprising--why wouldn't boys become enamored with well animated sequences of giant robots attacking monsters or each other? The feminine counterpart to giant robots is magical girls, which appeal as much to girls as giant robots do to boys. As much as I dislike it, ultraviolence escapes being fan-pandering for a similar reason.

Historian of the Moon wrote:

Each decade since at least the seventies had at least one giant robot series which is fondly remembered as a childhood memory by a large fraction of the population that grew up during that period, which is not at all surprising--why wouldn't boys become enamored with well animated sequences of giant robots attacking monsters or each other? The feminine counterpart to giant robots is magical girls, which appeal as much to girls as giant robots do to boys. As much as I dislike it, ultraviolence escapes being fan-pandering for a similar reason.

Perhaps I am a freak, but giant robots don't really do anything for me. Do I have to put on a pink tutu and makeup, now?

- abunai
Prefers magical girls to ULTRAMEGASUPERROBOMAN GETTERZAIBOT

abunai wrote:

Perhaps I am a freak, but giant robots don't really do anything for me. Do I have to put on a pink tutu and makeup, now?

Before donning feminine attire, perhaps you should first undergo the process of reverse aging so that you are a boy.

Historian of the Moon wrote:

The keyword here is "fan." To accuse an element of fan-pandering, the element presented must primarily appeal to those who are already fans of the element or some closely related element. This necessitates a narrow appeal, as an element with broad appeal would not have as its primarily intended audience those who are already fans. Take giant robots: Each decade since at least the seventies had at least one giant robot series which is fondly remembered as a childhood memory by a large fraction of the population that grew up during that period, which is not at all surprising--why wouldn't boys become enamored with well animated sequences of giant robots attacking monsters or each other? The feminine counterpart to giant robots is magical girls, which appeal as much to girls as giant robots do to boys. As much as I dislike it, ultraviolence escapes being fan-pandering for a similar reason.

Although, in case of moe as an element that provide fan-base, with or without the ultraviolence, the aspects moe can be treated anywhere in a genre. Even though a particular title may not focus on it and focus on ultraviolence, or mecha mayhem instead (as a few examples), then there is still some sort of fan-base attracted by the small quantity of viewers. I also like to think that elements, such as moe, appeals to both genders. Like moe, mecha, magical girls, they can appeal to both genders, but one has more or higher percentage in fan-base than the other by gender.

The thing that does annoy me about fan-pandering (whether it be moe, mecha, mil-ota, or whatever) is that it is, essentially, reductionist. It turns a story into a LEGO-block-like construction, which is to say it is made up of discrete elements which are individually identifiable as having been added to the mix to satisfy a particular audience demographic. Though the story may still work, overall, the individual elements do not usually blend seamlessly into a whole, and the storytelling often suffers as a consequence.

It's like cooking dinner, and adding all sorts of extraneous ingredients to the dish because one person or the other at the table happens to love that particular ingredient. The end result is a mishmash that satisfies nobody.

- abunai

What? What?! WHAT?! abunai, you weren't bashing BPS on the previous page now were you?! Shocked

That is probably one of the best series I've seen out there. And the moe in it makes it all the more funnier to watch Wink

On the whole side, I don't think much of it, and I can take it here and there and watch it. And at times, enjoy the comedic elements behind it (BPS). When it crosses the line and goes into being the other one, then I kind of turn away from it.

Last edited by bonbonsrus on Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

abunai wrote:

Perhaps I am a freak, but giant robots don't really do anything for me. Do I have to put on a pink tutu and makeup, now?

- abunai

Wow, I read this and went straight-away to your anime list and saw that you haven't yet seen Kiramecki Project.
This is a giant robot show that is off the beaten path, and may have some moe in it, which I am generally not opposed to in anyway. I am opposed to annoying characters, be they moe or not, but I can easily find moe characters cute and likable.
I recomend it to you abunai, and would be curious what you think if you see it.

Also, if I am trying to get a friend interested in anime, and they see a moe character, they really won't wanna watch anime at all, cause they're already under the stereotype that a "cartoon" can never be violent or have strong language. I know I wouldn't if I didn't already like anime. Hell, sometimes I don't watch series cause of the moe characters, took me forever to watch Air and Haruhi.

abunai wrote:

The thing that does annoy me about fan-pandering (whether it be moe, mecha, mil-ota, or whatever) is that it is, essentially, reductionist. It turns a story into a LEGO-block-like construction, which is to say it is made up of discrete elements which are individually identifiable as having been added to the mix to satisfy a particular audience demographic. Though the story may still work, overall, the individual elements do not usually blend seamlessly into a whole, and the storytelling often suffers as a consequence.

It's like cooking dinner, and adding all sorts of extraneous ingredients to the dish because one person or the other at the table happens to love that particular ingredient. The end result is a mishmash that satisfies nobody.

I like that perspective, it does make the the idea of integrated story line to be a little fragile to the appeal of audiences, because of individual taste or fan-pandering. However, isn't that a risk to take to get more fans to like a particular title, and make the story a bit complex just to make a descent rating. Even though, the idea (how I take it in what you said above), that an anime with different elements that is put in it has an end result of either a satisfaction from everyone or not at all.

Yeah, as the tide of conversation has turned this direction, I can add:

I HATE moe not because it's cutesy. The tongue-in-cheek mockery of it in Haruhi Suzumiya made me laugh, and little characters like Chiyo in Azumanga are adorable, on Tony's note.

But it's what the trend does to the STORY that drives me insane. There's such an influx of moe-licious bandwagoning that such shows suffer from the same snakepits that the mecha genre does.

(High-five abunai, I have never been drawn into the craze over giant robots either. If there are giant robots in an already good show, they up the snazz factor, but that's about it.)

They're such an emphasis on pandering to fans that you end up with something like Shuffle! or Mahoromatic that makes fans of moe, (which is kind of an understandable thing to find attractive, just not in COPIOUS amounts with no other point around) look like a bunch of morons. Story comes first. Gimmicks up the ratings. Too bad so many producers and studios reverse the two and end up with a mildly successful show that is forgotten within four months, and abhorred by those like myself...

.....

....

...who find the attraction to moe and mecha kind of stupid. -.-'

I have to say I agree with Zalis and was waiting for someone to say that moe is not a genre itself. I was waiting because I wanted someone else to say it first and let them get swarmed by the pro-moe people and not me. Sorry Zalis heh. It's, as Zalis said, an element to a show and not a genre on to itself. Saying something is a genre means that is has a specific story structure to it. Like comedy, drama, or action. Regardless of the other elements in the show when you know the genre you know what kind of show you're going to be watching. Simply saying a show is moe does not tell you if the show is action oriented, drama oriented, or a comedy. It's therefore not a genre. Plus there are many shows that range in genre that have moe elements/characters in them. Azumanga Daioh and Air are completely different in terms of story yet if we go by this moe genre idea they would be tossed into the same category together. That would just not make sense.

And as for the moe haters......I agree with abunai, grow the hell up. This is directed at the ones hating on moe as a whole to be more specific. If you don't like it then simply ignore it for God's sake. But no, so many feel they have to go on these pointless tirades about how it's ruining the anime fandom blah blah blah. If I wanna hear pointless speeches of that nature I'll just watch the current political speeches instead. Those people should try just ignoring moe and simply not watching it. I don't like romance novels myself. I see them as pointless books. However, I don't go on some crusade against them because A. other people do like them, and B. I can just pick up a good Science Fiction novel and be happy. The idea applies here. If you don't like moe then simply watch something else and spare everyone else your ever so insightful and poignant tirade into it's evils. It's one thing to dislike something but another to get so worked up over one single element in a cartoon, and to persecute fans of that element as well. Seriously, some people need to readjust their priorities a bit.

abunai wrote:

Folks, folks, folks.... you really need to grow the Hell up. What is the point of all this rage and vitriol over a piece of animation? Nobody is forcing you to watch it, so if it bugs you, stop.

But you don't do that, do you?

No.

Instead, you watch it, and then you spew your pointless anger all over the forums.

Very, very mature of you.

Yes because some of us try to give a show a chance.Some people just have to finish something once they start.
Everyone does it with a certain series either way.
If my pointless anger bothers you,don't read my post then.
Skip ahead.

abunai wrote:

Zalis116 wrote:

* What's the crime in being "fan-pandering"? If it means "presenting things in a way such that they appeal to a certain portion of a fanbase in hopes of making said fans buy the product," then I suppose moe is guilty as charged. But it's hardly the fan-pandering genre as you're classifying it. Aren't things like ultraviolence/exploding heads, mountains of otaku/culture references (which can be done without moe, see Excel Saga), hordes of homoerotically-affectionate bishounen, or the aforementioned giant robots also efforts by creators to appeal to certain sectors of the fanbase to entice them to buy product? I don't dispute that moe is fan-pandering, but it's not significantly more so than any other trend in the anime medium. Or is something only "fan-pandering" if it's doing something that the speaker doesn't like?

* Who's trying to make you watch moetan? Your friend/roommate? People on the Internet who live thousands of miles away from you? I know you just mean it as an example, but how do Moetan and other moemoe series affect you simply by existing? Why not live and let live?

Exactly so, Zalis has the right idea here.

There is no obligation to watch each and every anime. I generally take a peek at most series, but I feel no worries about dropping them if they don't appeal to me. If I find them truly awful (Weiss Kreuz or Battle Programmer Shirase, for instance), I may occasionally mention them as solid examples of the low end of the quality spectrum in anime. But this kind of exaggerated, childish rage? Never.

What do you gain from these hysterics? Why not relax a bit and... what was it again... oh, yes: grow up.

- abunai

Of course we gain nothing.
Sometimes we TRY out 'new' stuff and have the need to express our thoughts on it.That's what some of us are doing.What's wrong with that?

And I do the same as well when checking out a particular series but sometimes 'unexpected' things pop up.
Example: The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.
I had NO CLUE what this series was about and I just decided to pitch in on what the whole hype was about of this anime.I enjoyed the show alright but Mikuru.....got on my nerves.She's cute and all but sometimes cute-ness can become irritating.
So I wasn't going to be stupid and drop the whole series because of some stupid moe-character >.>

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