Forum - View topicWhat do you think of moe?
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Ikari1
 Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Being fairly new to anime in general ( last couple of years ) the quality of my observations maybe somewhat innacurate in certain ways so bear with me. Correct me if im wrong but in this thread we have 3 groups of people. The people who watch anime with mainly moe elements in it, the people who wont watch anime with moe elements in it, and the people who dont mind either way and are like me, wondering what all the fuss is about. My own preferences are irrelevant as i watch anime and that is what i watch. I dont know what to exspect alot of the time when i start watching something but ill give it a good chance if i like where the story is going and the animation. Now back to the issue at hand. We have 3 groups of people. Now one lot who like moe aspects and one lot that doesnt. Isnt the simple truth behind this argument that no one is right on this one? I will say this however. Moe is a valid genre/aspect/trait within anime. It is not there just to piss people off. Watching and liking moe characters or aspects is also not wrong. Moe, like the development of genres, has to have a popular following of some sort for it to be considered suitable as an aspect that can be used again and again. This means there are more than a few people who like this sort of characterisation in some way or form. What i wont do however is label a show moe at the exspence of considering the other aspects of the story.
Arguments such as this are again not going to get anywhere as for starters what you call quality entertainment may be someone elses idea of a shit sandwhich, and secondly why cant the form of charicterisation known as moe be a 'traditional' means of appeal. If a show has a character that is ' a bit moe' in it, that doesnt and shouldnt effect the quality of the story telling or the issues addressed in the show from the offset. That is why it is imflamitory to label a show 'moe' in the first place in my opinion. As with all forms of art, not every one will like it so all we can do is try and be considerate to those who have different opinions. There is no right or wrong on this one. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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Ikari1 wrote:
Or we have a group of folks who read the thread title 'What do you think of Moe?', and decided to share their thoughts on, well, how they feel about 'Moe'. It's not a 'fuss', there's no gun fight at the 'Moe K' Corral leaving dying posters in it's wake, and the fate of 'Moe' isn't dependent on who subjectively 'wins' this thread.
Then....
I understand what your post is getting at, but said politely, in reality you opined there's no 'right or wrong', and then proceeded to illustrate what you thought was right and wrong. You lectured people for making a 'fuss', and then you made a fuss. And by no means are you the only poster to take this tact over the last few pages, but aimed in general, if your going to spend effort in an opinion thread why not just simply write how you feel about the subject, rather than spending most of your capital telling others they should feel foolish voicing theirs. It's an opinion thread on a broad topic, by nature it's going to attract a spectrum of comments. A few have struck me as way too defensive, a few have struck me as unfair in criticism (especially, as I've said a couple time, the 'shallow' critcism. I've watched the heck out of shows like 'Those Who Hunt Elves' and 'Sorcerer Hunters' that are a galaxy away from 'Moe', and also a universe away from energizing any brain cells). At the same time this thread is no where as contentious as fansub or sub/dub threads usually get. 'Moe' is also not the only 'fan element' to elicit critcism around these parts, many ANN reviewers and fans are very harsh on 'traditional' T&A style fan-service. There's also some truth in the 'everything is subjective/no right or wrong' style comments, but at the same time the same logic can be used in any thread on most any subject. Didn't like that plot turn? Subjective, somebody likes it, don't make a fuss about it. Think the art style was a miss? Subjective, somebody likes it, don't fuss about it. If we took such an extreme standard there would hardly be any conversation at all. Last edited by Goodpenguin on Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Well I wasn't really referring to anything specific. Just my general dislike for moe and it's increasingly large presence in anime and manga. (Although now that you bring it up, moe characters turning up in non-moe series can be particularilly irksome. Thats sort of a separate issue though).
Oh nothing at all says moe can't also be good. There could be and in all likelihood are at least some genuinely good moe series out there. The problem is that it is so very easy for them to fall back on the moe appeal. If that's what people are really tuning in for why bother with that other stuff. It's often easier and cheaper to just keep churning out low quality moe shows. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Is this really a moe problem or a low quality anime problem? I don't know that moe is the real issue here. if your concern is quality then low quality exists with or without moe.
I just have to stress again, what's wrong with Kanon/Clannad/Air? Not everyone likes them, but they are certainly liked by a large part of the populace even many who don't like the "bad moe shows." The ratings alone show that, while ratings for the "bad moe shows" aren't good because they are undeserving. Now if you are saying bad quality shows gain viewers and relative popularity based on "cheap" humor and low-brow taste then once again I've got to say this exists far outside of moe. I just don't see how moe is the problem. It may just be that it's the current incarnation of "the problem" since it's being used in newer poor quality junk. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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No matter what medium one is experiencing -- whether it's anime now, or video games, or comic books in the 1950s, or television in the era of B/W, or radio back in the pre-WW2 years, there has always been a generous helping of "low quality entertainment". From time to time, there have been people like Will H. Hays, Fredric Wertham or Jack Thompson who made their "careers" out of fighting against the supposedly "socially destructive" tendencies of the medium's "worst excesses".
In recent years, we have seen hysteria surrounding a number of aspects of anime, from hentai to lolicon to the "quality loss" involved in localization of anime into American dubs, and so on. Some of these feelings of outrage (I leave the decision as to which up to the audience) may or may not be more justified than others. The fact remains that they do not represent a universal view, and they tend to blow over, for one reason or another. Where are the snows of yesteryear? Whither now the Comics Code Authority? Moral outrage (whether mild social ostracism or full-blown witchhunt) has always been a passing phenomenon. Like any herdbeasts, the morally outraged crowd will move on to more fertile grazing-lands, in the fullness of time. The most recent wave of outrage is against moe, and this, too, shall pass. I think Xanas is right in judging this to be just another instance of "low quality". It's not going to be about moe forever. Ten years from now, the habitually-outraged segment among anime fans will be whining about some other aspect of anime "ruining anime". From the depths of my heart: Meh. - abunai |
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Alestal
 Posts: 605 Location: Dallas, Texas |
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I don't think moe adds anything interesting to anime, unless used to add humor, and even then its a tough call. Maybe its because I can't sympathize with characters that have no personality,spunk, or guts. They are put there for your sympathy(or emotional/sexual attachment:?), and I don't like depressing anime.
I really wish they'd cool it and put more characters out there that have self-confidence and know what they are doing, and not just in the action genre. ' |
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Labbes
 Posts: 890 |
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Did you watch Gunslinger Girl? It's not as if every anime involving moe had shallow characters. Seriously, I don't get why people seem to "hate" all moe anime when there's actually some good ones. |
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zanarkand princess
 Posts: 1484 |
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Well the gunslinger girls themselves didn't really have this lack of self confidence that Alestal was talking about. They were kind of normal for little girls. Plus their handlers seemed to genuinely care for them and there was no lecherous old man that had a lolita complex. Unlike a lot of moe gunslinger girl felt very honest.
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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I did not call people foolish for voicing thier opinions. My aim with my post was to A: comment on a post that i felt made an assumption that i felt was not particualrly strong. Nothing against that person but in this case i thought it was a bit weak to claim something wasnt quality entertainment just becasue they did not like it. I enjoyed reading that persons posts up till that point but i thought that that particular comment was not very well argued. B: I wanted to just remind people that this is a topic that is purely based on opinion and to try and be abit more considerate. I have voiced my opinions on the subject- I wont judge something just becasue it has a moe character or characters in it. Moe does not make me want to throw up the moment i get a whiff of it in an anime series.I will see how this adapts and flows with the story before passing judgement. This is my opinion. I am capable of viewing moe on a equal playing field with anime. The sorts of characters, and the way in which they are potrayed is one part of lots of different elements. Black lagoon has alot of gore in it. This is one aspect of the series which whilst being a dominant theme throughout is not the only thing that matters. In conclusion , I think that moe isnt the overflowing doom cult to spread across anime that some people make it out to be but on the other hand i dont quite understand the mentality behind following mainly anime that has moe characters in it ( not that this is wrong or strange i might add) . My opinion is that i think moe should be judged on how it fits within the context of the story rather than simply saying it ruins anime where ever it is used as i find this too narrow a view to take if that makes sense. Im having trouble getting my full opinion into words but that does not make it an invalid opinion and nor does it make it a lecture. If we are going to talk about productive ways in which to contribute to a thread then i fail to see how taking up the keyboard sword and trying to make me out to be calling every body ' foolish' and calling my opinions 'lecturing' . is contributing to a thread about moe. This was not MY intention. People are not foolish for voicing thier opinions. I meerly made a blanket comment about the sort of thread this is and then gave my opinions Like i said in the begining, im fairly new to anime ( i still haven't even watched cowboy bebop) so give me the benefit of the doubt as im not all knowledgable which whilst making my opinion still valid, does mean im not always in complete understanding about certain areas of anime.
Yes you are right, but my comments were only an attempt to keep the conversation friendly and put things back into perspective for both my benefit and everybody elses, not a challange to your freedom of speech.The irony is that my usage of the term ' whats all the fuss about'' was intended to lighten the mood. It was never intended as a slight or a major comment on the thread. ikillchicken Are you saying that you think there is just too much of a moe element in anime at this period in time and that this is the main reason behind there being a back lash against it now? Last edited by Ikari1 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:49 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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If I could hijack that for a moment might I suggest that the backlash against moe in the past couple of years is the rising sensitivity to pedophilia due to increasing child abductions/molestations? Especially here in the U.S. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Hmmm Im not entirely sure on how to deal with this one as I've never considered this before. Are you suggesting that moe themed characters in anime could be seen to encourage child abuse? Im confused however....are we talking about the grey areas of lolita rather than moe or have i misundertood the definitions. I think ill let someone alot braver than me (and who knows more about the situation) comment comprehensively on this one. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Such a backlash would then only be justified if all moe characters were underage and sexualized, but this is not the case. Moe is not interchangeable with lolicon. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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But perhaps not everyone is educated enough to understand the difference, and therein lies the problem and the flaming.
On a separate note: My personal problem is that more often than not I do find moe characters sexualized. And underage has nothing to do with it. I find many moe adults to be disturbing because there can be a focus on their physical body while their behavior is naive and childlike; this either perpetuates the same principle as child-molestation in that it's okay to take advantage of someone who is (granted, unrealistically) naive and virtually helpless; or, in the case of women, who gives a shit what's going on in their head as long as they have a nice rack. I have seen one example of moe that I really did like (I think it would technically classify). Honey from Ouran High School Host Club claimed to be the resident loli-shota type, however he was never sexualized and was actually pretty cute. *I'm pretty sure loli is reserved for underage characters (?). On the theory of moe, I think the idea of "protecting" is a guy thing, especially since most moe characters are female. In theory moe isn't offensive except for its portrayal of women. But when it comes to application, I do think a lot of moe is sexualized, hence the above post. Last edited by rainbowcourage on Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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G-mofactor
 Posts: 797 Location: Atlantis to Interzone |
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ahh... I got that memo. I can't find any proof that child abductions/molestation have any connections with a case of too much moe. It is reasonable enough to believe such incidents if I experienced lolicon. Although, such a theory would be vague, as I hear more of those kind incidents without hearing in any relation to the person's anime interests to be one of the reasons. So, moe to me is just something that could be defined in anime. The only way I could think of for now, to have moe as one of the factors in child abductions/molestations, is when more realistic animation is made to even put in the moe element in Japanese animation. I can't even imagine Air having the Samurai X OVAs animation. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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Ikari1 wrote:
Before you succumb to a nasty 'keyboard sword' wound, please keep in mind from context:
There's no criticism whatsoever of your perceived 'anime knowledge' in that either, so no need for angrin' up the blood. With that in mind, and giving 'the heart is in the right place' so to speak, it's not necessary for folks to jump in just to remind everyone that 'opinions are subjective' or 'let's all be courteous'. It's a opinion thread and the majority of people have been considerate. The back-end of that is sometimes a person will chime in with a 'Oh, I can't believe people are arguing about this!' comment, and then....proceed to argue about the topic. Then they will quote another poster and argue how they are wrong in their opinion.......only to finish by saying 'But there's no right or wrong'. No knock at all on the quality of the given opinion, just a general statement about focusing one's efforts into what one thinks about the topic subject, not getting sidetracked in 'arguing about how people are arguing about the topic'. rainbowcourage wrote:
While there's certainly some 'fringe' content at the edges of 'Moe' that may touch on controversial matters, that's to wide a brush to paint (I also don't know if there's been a noticeable rise in child abduction issues?). I think there's a good amount of talk in this thread that outlines what some people don't enjoy about 'Moe' that stems from typical individual taste/preference matters. |
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