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Spirited Away vs. Princess Mononoke in the U.S.


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lborl



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:34 pm Reply with quote
Spirited Away also has a much better English title that neatly encapsulates the film's premise.

Princess Mononoke appears (to the uninitiated) to be about a Princess whose name is Mononoke. If they see the poster as well, they might infer that the boy on it with a sword has to go and rescue her or something, which all sounds terribly hackneyed.
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TheVok



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:26 pm Reply with quote
I would certainly say 'Spirited Away' has more universal appeal because it's aimed more at children. Miyazaki is exceptionally skilled at communicating with younger audiences; I've never seen a kid who wasn't instantly entranced by 'My Neighbour Totoro,' for example. 'Princess Mononoke' is a great film, but a bit more of an experiment outside Miyazaki's usual comfort zone. And good on 'im for that, but 'Spirited Away' was more exemplary of his style and his greatest strengths.
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:05 pm Reply with quote
TheVok wrote:
I would certainly say 'Spirited Away' has more universal appeal because it's aimed more at children. Miyazaki is exceptionally skilled at communicating with younger audiences; I've never seen a kid who wasn't instantly entranced by 'My Neighbour Totoro,' for example. 'Princess Mononoke' is a great film, but a bit more of an experiment outside Miyazaki's usual comfort zone. And good on 'im for that, but 'Spirited Away' was more exemplary of his style and his greatest strengths.


Part of the appeal to My Neighbor Totoro I think is the use of an idea that you just don't see much of anymore, but is an idea that works great with younger audiences. The idea is a lack of an antagonist or major villain, or simply the use of events and a story rather than any evil or sinister element. As a domestic example, Polar Express is similar in this style in that the movie really has no sinister component or villain. There's still always hurdles or situations the cast faces in the movies, but there's something to be said for a movie that doesn't rely on tradiational antagonistic elements, especially for younger audiences as it makes the movie more fun when done well.


Last edited by Keonyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kimiko_0



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:06 pm Reply with quote
I always wondered why they translated "Mononoke Hime" as "Princess Mononoke". Grammatically I suppose it's not incorrect, but the alternative "The Mononoke Princess" would be much more accurate.
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sk1199



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:37 pm Reply with quote
Kimik-o - I'll do you one better what is a Mononoke? I never understood the title in the first place.
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Kimiko_0



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:27 pm Reply with quote
SK1199 - Mononoke? Have you seen the movie? It's explained there what mononoke are. Strong malevolent spirits would be an approximation I think, although in the movie the term is used also for spirits that are not malevolent. Japanese mythology is kinda hard to explain using English words.
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TurnerJ



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:01 pm Reply with quote
AnbuItachi wrote:
Hi, I have a few questions today. I hope someone knows something about it.

Both films are written by the same person and both are very famous and highly rated. However in the United States, Spirited Away was much more popular than Princess Mononoke, earning about 5 times the amount that Princess did. Disney reported they were not happy with the box office sales for Princess Mononoke.

So why is Spirited Away so much more popular than Princess Mononoke? Is it related to American culture because both did very well in Japan. Is there something in Spirited Away that attracted the US viewers that was somewhat absent from Princess?

Thanks


I think it was the fact that Mononoke was not only an "adult" film, but heavily steeped in Japanese history that would have been impossible to translate without confusing its audience.

Spirited Away is also grounded in Japanese mythology, but to a lesser extent and is more family-friendly.

Personally I prefer Mononoke, because that was one of the first Miyazaki films I saw (the others being Kiki, Totoro, and Laputa)--I loved its characters being complex for a change and I was so engrossed in the story that it was hard for me to ever be bored by a minute.

I am in no way implying that Spirited Away is an inferior film, but I have become less attached to it because of the overhype it receives. It's a good film, but nowhere nearly the same caliber as Mononoke IMO.

-Jon T.
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daxomni



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:23 pm Reply with quote
Kimiko_0 wrote:
darker, more violent theme, both environmental and anti-war.

Now this is where I think the crux of the problem rests. By combining the marginal appeal of mature anime with two highly controversial themes into a single movie I think the chance of widespread domestic success was pretty much doomed.

TheTheory wrote:
I have trouble with movies (or music or books) that feel like there is an agenda behind them.

Exactly. Movies that have anything resembling a moral agenda tend to stick out like sore thumb in this market.

Murasakisuishou wrote:
I loved Spirited Away because it's so accessible. It's just a story about a little girl growing up without any of that awful crammed-down-your-throat let-nature do-whatever-it-wants-at-the-expense-of-humans environmentalist crap.

Case in point. I'd wager that around half of the country feels just like Murasakisuishou here does. Only a rather small number of prospective domestic moviegoers would be truly receptive to both the format and the messages present in Mononoke. I guess we can blame Disney for bad marketing, but I happen to think this movie was trying to tap into a largely non-existent audience. If you ripped out the unwanted introspection then maybe more folks would have considered seeing it, but what sort of story would be left at that point? It was a no-win situation and I doubt any amount of advertising would have changed the eventual result. Movies that actively promote the virtues of a humble existence are best kept in other countries where the audience is less likely to see such themes as an affront to their way of life.
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Murasakisuishou



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:51 pm Reply with quote
To clarify my position, it's not that I completely object to any movie/other form or entertainment with a moral message behind it - I just thought that the message in Princess Mononoke was abrasive and too forceful in its presentation to really make one consider it positively. If you're trying to criticize the lifestyle of an entire civilization it's better to do it in a softer, gentler, more human manner and present the issues in question in more of a conversational environment instead of the "humans and technology bad, nature gods good, no compromise" deal used in so many of Miyazaki's more serious fims.
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Kruszer



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:58 pm Reply with quote
But it's a common theme in Miyazaki movies and Disney movies for that matter. Most of them do that, and to me they're like being bashed in the head with the morality stick. It doesn't hurt but it's kind of annoying when somebody keeps doing it; like one of those Nerf bats. Very Happy

Well, if you were to ask me I'd say Princess Mononoke was the better movie. I enjoyed that one a lot more than Spirited Away, mostly because I prefered Princess Mononoke's darker and more dramatic atnosphere. Spirited Away was more of a family friendly movie and I also have trouble caring about movies with children as the main characters.

Miyazaki/Ghibli movies in general are hit or miss with me. I like Princess Mononoke and Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, and Lupin the 3rd: The Castle of Cagliostro quite a bit. The rest kind of fall in the mediocre range for me, though Only Yesterday was the only one I actually disliked.
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RhymesWithEmpty



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:40 am Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
I guess we can blame Disney for bad marketing, but I happen to think this movie was trying to tap into a largely non-existent audience.


I think that hit the nail on the head. The type of audience that is going to enjoy Princess Mononoke is just much more prevalent in Japan than it is in America. The idea of serious adult cartoons in general is just more scoffed at by American society, I think. Meanwhile, Spirited Away can be very easily and very successfully targeted towards children, which is a much more universal audience. And it just fit in with Disney so well, it was bound to get more attention. Really, I think it's more about the differences in our cultures than it is about the movies themselves. Princess Mononoke could have won a dozen more awards over in Japan for all the good I think it would have done here. Even if Mononoke was somehow held by every serious anime fan to be the superior film, I'd bet Spirited Away would have still received more mainstream attention.

I myself find it hard to pick between them, although I think I'm leaning towards Spirited Away, if only because it was the first Miyazaki film I saw, and the magic of it just really sucked me in. I do really love Princess Mononoke too, though. Then again, I can also understand the criticism it gets for being so heavy handed, and perhaps a bit boring. I think it could have been edited a bit, it does seem ridiculously long, whenever I watch it. But it does have great action, beautiful animation and setting, and a nice, dark atmosphere, so even when it drags on, it's still somehow captivating, to me. They're two very different things, it seems rather silly to compare them, really - I'm just going to say they're both great movies deserving of tons of praise and leave it at that. Very Happy
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:07 am Reply with quote
Murasakisuishou wrote:
If you're trying to criticize the lifestyle of an entire civilization it's better to do it in a softer, gentler, more human manner and present the issues in question in more of a conversational environment instead of the "humans and technology bad, nature gods good, no compromise" deal used in so many of Miyazaki's more serious fims.

I don't think Miyazaki's goal is for everyone to leave the theater feeling bad for who they are and I honestly did not interpret Princess Mononoke to be in such a vein. The fact that it's an animated story about fictional creatures from a forgotten era is already softening it quite a bit in my view. The story was not realistic but it did take some pains to explain why so much had changed prior to our era. I think the story of a group of people acting in their own short-sighted interests at the expense of everyone else is both believable and compelling. Not every story must be a positive one, not every character can save everyone, and not every ending needs to be a happy one.

I happened to come across this interview while looking into the back-story of this thread. Perhaps it will shed a little bit of light on where Miyazaki is coming from.

The Guardian wrote:
[Hayao Miyazaki has] a very serene and contented brand of fatalism. He talks about New Orleans, and Hurricane Katrina and insists that the same thing will happen in Tokyo. There are a lot of water-gates in the city, and the river runs past his home. He smiles and taps ash from his cigarette. There are too many people in the world, he says, and too many wrong turns along the way. At the age of 64, he gives the impression that the planet is doomed but he'll soon be leaving it, and not a minute too soon. "Personally I am very pessimistic," Miyazaki says. "But when, for instance, one of my staff has a baby you can't help but bless them for a good future. Because I can't tell that child, 'Oh, you shouldn't have come into this life.' And yet I know the world is heading in a bad direction. So with those conflicting thoughts in mind, I think about what kind of films I should be making."

Perhaps this is why he tells children's stories. "Well, yes. I believe that children's souls are the inheritors of historical memory from previous generations. It's just that as they grow older and experience the everyday world that memory sinks lower and lower. I feel I need to make a film that reaches down to that level. If I could do that I would die happy." I ask if he feels he's managed that already and he chuckles and shakes his head. Nor does he feel that film can be employed as a force for good. "Film doesn't have that kind of power," he says, gloomily. "It only exerts its influence when it stirs patriots up against other nations, or taps into aggressive, violent urges." This is a black diagnosis indeed. But then, inexplicably, Miyazaki's mood lightens. Perhaps it's the sunshine, or the cigarette, or the fact that the interview is almost over. "Of course," he relents, "if, as artists, we try to tap into that soul level - if we say that life is worth living and the world is worth living in - then something good might come of it." He shrugs. "Maybe that's what these films are doing. They are my way of blessing the child"

I'm beginning to think that introspection is a dying state of mind in this market. We're a country that seems to thrive on giving people exactly what they want to hear and nothing else. We have radio stations, newspapers, television channels, and websites all dedicated to feeding people everything they already believe, no matter how unrealistic it is, and I don't see that ending anytime soon. In fact I only see it getting more and more divided until eventually everyone will have their own source that spins everything just the way they like it and nobody will have any clue what's really going on anymore.
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Kimiko_0



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:14 am Reply with quote
Let's not start a flame war about Miyazaki's themes, shall we? If you're of a different political persuasion, that's your choice, but please don't start foisting that on the rest of us. We get enough crap about USAian politics on other forums already.
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sk1199



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:20 am Reply with quote
Yes, I did watch Mononke multiple times in both English and Japanese. However, when I watch in Japanese I pay more attention to the subtitles and very little to the actual language track. I don't speak Japanese so there's no sense paying attention to it.
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Kimiko_0



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:12 am Reply with quote
Oh, but the explanation goes in English too. I was just referring to English words like 'spirits' or 'gods' being somewhat inaccurate when talking about beings from Japanese mythology. Anyway, I think the concept of mononoke, as used in Mononoke Hime, was explained by Moro when Ashitaka first met her.
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