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Tamaria wrote:

Here, this will be helpful: Why libraries are not the same as manga scanlation sites

The main thrust of the essay linked is that the library paid for its copy (or, in the case of donors, the original owner paid for said copy) and that this is completely different from the case of scanlators.

This is false.

In the case of a scanlation, whoever scanned the raw for that manga did pay for a copy.

One copy is bought, and from that one copy multiple people read the work in question without the publisher seeing a single cent/yen further.

The principle is exactly the same; the only thing that is different is the volume. If you want to make an argument on those grounds (and that is the one valid argument put forward at that link, in between much puffing of the chest and implied ignorance of the limits of public funding these days) feel free, but don't pretend that the comparison has no merit.

shukero wrote:

I believe a steam like place for anime is exactly what crunchyroll and others are proceeding with right now. I'm not gonna say that it's 100% working, but if they can find what apple did (an agreement on price between the licenser and licensee) then they can start dishing out anime just like iTunes dishes out music & videos. What turns most people off about paying for anime is the "high" price; which is exactly what happened to the music industry right after napster took off. The industry thought that $20 for a cd was ok and people though otherwise. However when the $0.99 per song itunes store started up, more people started buying music again because it was a lot cheaper than buying the whole CD for $20. I'm not saying that these same exact models will work for anime, but something based on this could work.

Usually games on Steam still cost a pretty penny.

LuScr wrote:

Tamaria wrote:

Here, this will be helpful: Why libraries are not the same as manga scanlation sites

The main thrust of the essay linked is that the library paid for its copy (or, in the case of donors, the original owner paid for said copy) and that this is completely different from the case of scanlators.

This is false.

In the case of a scanlation, whoever scanned the raw for that manga did pay for a copy.

One copy is bought, and from that one copy multiple people read the work in question without the publisher seeing a single cent/yen further.

The principle is exactly the same; the only thing that is different is the volume. If you want to make an argument on those grounds (and that is the one valid argument put forward at that link, in between much puffing of the chest and implied ignorance of the limits of public funding these days) feel free, but don't pretend that the comparison has no merit.

In this case the volume makes a huge difference.

A book is a physical object. It will deteriorate over time and will have to be replaced eventually. A popular book may be lend out, at most!, 50 times or so before it falls apart.

Digital data doesn't deteriorate. It can be copied again and again, hundreds, thousands, even millions of times and the last copy will be exactly the same quality as the first.

See the difference?

Also, depending on the library system in use, a small amount of money goes to the author everytime a book is lend out. That's how the Dutch system works.

Hey, did you know there's a manga library in Utrecht that has thousands of English manga editions? Everytime you read one of those, some money will go the creator(s). Oh, and before you start to whine that there isn't anything like that near you: this is a fan initiative.

After reading the comments in this thread, I'm amazed at how people can defend/attack copyright law without any knowledge of the law.

In this debate it must be understood that anime and manga are "public goods." These things (i.e. TV, books, etc.) only have value when they are available to the public. Creators of many of these works rely on the value of being able to control the distribution of these works. This control only exists through the law. Even though not every creator has a need to rely on this (e.g. the merchandising empire surrounding One Piece), success isn't uniform.

I've read several comments relating that relate to the first sale doctrine (i.e. a person buys a game, resells it to a store, and the store resells it to another gamer at a markup). The first sale doctrine cuts off when copyright owners can control their works. This is the law in the US and flows from property law: when object is sold, it no longer be used by the person who sold it. For example, a person buys a book, but when he sells it to another person, he can no longer read it. This doesn't apply to scanlations, even though one copy of the original is bought, since nobody is eventually deprived of the enjoyment of the original item.

On a side note, I find it frustrating that anime/manga fans use that Gabe Newell quote as a blanket justification for the amount of piracy that goes on in the community. While it is relevant for MangaStream and Shonen Jump Alpha, it has no relevance for fans who use HorribleSubs and have access to Crunchyroll.

shukero wrote:

Hmm, first time reading answerman; and I gotta say fascinating read. In my personal opinion, I think that SJ Alpha is just the test phase for something bigger.

Interesting thought. That would be cool if Alpha led to getting the chapters closer to the japanese release date but with the way so many people are acting about having to pay for 2 week old chapters I wouldn't be surprised if Viz stops alpha.

shukero wrote:

I believe a steam like place for anime is exactly what crunchyroll and others are proceeding with right now. I'm not gonna say that it's 100% working, but if they can find what apple did (an agreement on price between the licenser and licensee) then they can start dishing out anime just like iTunes dishes out music & videos. What turns most people off about paying for anime is the "high" price; which is exactly what happened to the music industry right after napster took off. The industry thought that $20 for a cd was ok and people though otherwise. However when the $0.99 per song itunes store started up, more people started buying music again because it was a lot cheaper than buying the whole CD for $20. I'm not saying that these same exact models will work for anime, but something based on this could work.

The only thing holding these companies back is probably the economy. If they had extra available resources, they could try it out, but everyone is strapped for cash right now, and the only way to stay affloat right now, is to sale what you know will sale well. They don't have the capital or resources to invest in something so massive so quickly Smile

I don't know if you remember but when Itunes started selling anime back in 2007 anime fans still complained. They wanted the japense version with subs, they didn't want to pay $1.29 and episode, they didn't want it tied to itunes, they said any kind of excuse you could imagine. As for crunchyroll it is a good start to an anime like steam program. I love steam and think its the greatest thing to happen to PC gaming in a long time. One thing everyone loves about steam are their sales. If you wait long enough, which many of us pc gamers can, you can get a AAA title on sale sometimes in a months time. I got Skyrim in December, a month after it came out, for only $43 instead of $60. When ever steam has their winter and summer sale mine along with many others have our wallets drained. Just last week they had a Jedi Knight daily deal and got 5 star wars games for $5 which normally would have been $20. If Crunchyroll started selling anime that once bought you could watch it dubbed or subbed and you could get the sub after it aired in Japan then that could work. The program is anime fans can be some of the most ungrateful @$$holes on the planet. A lot of still pirate simply because they could. Yes Gabe Newell said pirates will always pirate and the real issue is pricing and making people want to buy the legit product, but pc gamers are not as difficult as anime fans lol. Sure we will complain about stupid things but we at least wait. I had to wait 2 months for Arkham City to be on PC and Im going to wait who knows how long for Resident Evil Operation Raccoon City and 6 to come to PC. But instead of pirating a lot of us PC gamers will either buy the console version or buy the PC version when it actually comes out. From what I have seen of Crunchyroll I like so far.

LuScr wrote:

The main thrust of the essay linked is that the library paid for its copy (or, in the case of donors, the original owner paid for said copy) and that this is completely different from the case of scanlators.

This is false.

In the case of a scanlation, whoever scanned the raw for that manga did pay for a copy.

One copy is bought, and from that one copy multiple people read the work in question without the publisher seeing a single cent/yen further.

The principle is exactly the same; the only thing that is different is the volume. If you want to make an argument on those grounds (and that is the one valid argument put forward at that link, in between much puffing of the chest and implied ignorance of the limits of public funding these days) feel free, but don't pretend that the comparison has no merit.

That is a weak argument. Yes the person who uploaded the scan did buy a volume and it is no where near the same as letting a friend borrow the book or going to a library. With a scan million of people from anywhere in the world can read what the scanner uploaded, but the difference? The scanner still has the book. When letting a friend borrow the manga you bought you do not have it to read. So naturally you will want it back from your friend sooner then later plus after your friend is done you will probably get it back instead of it going to a difference person. Ad with a library you have to make the effort to go to the library, get a library card, and either check the book out to have for a limited time or read it while there.

Last edited by shukero on Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

enurtsol wrote:

shukero wrote:

I believe a steam like place for anime is exactly what crunchyroll and others are proceeding with right now. I'm not gonna say that it's 100% working, but if they can find what apple did (an agreement on price between the licenser and licensee) then they can start dishing out anime just like iTunes dishes out music & videos. What turns most people off about paying for anime is the "high" price; which is exactly what happened to the music industry right after napster took off. The industry thought that $20 for a cd was ok and people though otherwise. However when the $0.99 per song itunes store started up, more people started buying music again because it was a lot cheaper than buying the whole CD for $20. I'm not saying that these same exact models will work for anime, but something based on this could work.

Usually games on Steam still cost a pretty penny.

LOL, you are right! DAMN! You got me there Razz

LuScr wrote:

The main thrust of the essay linked is that the library paid for its copy (or, in the case of donors, the original owner paid for said copy) and that this is completely different from the case of scanlators.

This is false.

In the case of a scanlation, whoever scanned the raw for that manga did pay for a copy.

One copy is bought, and from that one copy multiple people read the work in question without the publisher seeing a single cent/yen further.

So you have proved they are the same by carefully avoiding the difference pointed out by the essay you are disputing?

In the case of the library, somebody paid for the copy of the work being read. In the case of a scanlation, nobody paid for the copy of the work being read. The question posed is, "did somebody pay for that copy?", and since the library book and the manga scanlation have opposite answers, they are different cases, Rephrasing to ignore and obscure the difference does not make it go away.

I'm with Gatsu...there's a serious error in the data on Akira. IMDB lists Akira as making back nearly 6x its budget. No less an expert than Susan Napier noted in one of her books that Akira was the number one film in Japan the year of its release. You can make your arguments with Honneamise, but not with Akira.

Answerman wrote:

And honestly, I've never really agreed with the argument that there's a large group of fans who just "will never buy anything anyway." Because a pretty solid percentage of those fans whose only exposure to anime is through fansubs and scanlations will gleefully spend the money to go to conventions, make costumes, and so forth. And that's not cheap. It costs a pretty penny to rent a hotel room in Baltimore, or to purchase enough plastic and PVC pipe to construct your own sword from Bleach.

Answerman: do you still go to conventions (aside from for "work")? I only ask because it seems like a lot of ANIME fans (people who watch and truly enjoy ANIME) do not. Why? Because they're full of a bunch of internet-meme spouting brats. How much cosplay now is taken with "Homestuck" or "Ponies" or "Dr Who" or various video game franchises? I'd say your odds are at LEAST 50/50, if you swing your arm out at an anime con you'd hit someone who would have no issue admitting that they either haven't watched any anime in the last 3-5 years or even ever.

Cutiebunny wrote:

What if I wanted to directly give my money to the mangaka? What if I were so impressed by their recent work that I wanted to give them a $20 donation as a 'thank you'? Asking me to buy 20 volumes of their manga is absurd. Why are there no websites where I could send, via Paypal or whatever, a direct deposit to the mangaka? I'd feel a lot better knowing that the mangaka received the money, directly, instead of paying some Japanese distributor muckety-muck's Golden Week bonus.

re: your argument above, if you like and want to support the author then buying 20 copies of the manga is better than giving the author a $20 donation. Debatably, buying 2 copies (at $10/copy) is better than the $20 donation even if the author only makes $1-2 per copy. Reason being: the sold copies speak to the popularity of the author. If an author sells 100 copies of a book, the publisher may drop them because they're not marketable. But if they sell a million copies, then even if the current series ends, they'll still get work because the publisher sees people will buy it. Yes, other people make money too, but that's simply the nature of the beast.

Quote:

Yes, other people make money too, but that's simply the nature of the beast.

And there's nothing wrong with that. By working for a publisher a mangaka is able to focus on drawing manga. They don't have to worry about marketing, talking to anime and merchandise producers or anything like that. That allows the mangaka to draw 15-20 pages a week, like the fans want him/her to.

Of course, this model isn't the best for everyone, but there's a good reason why it exists.

Excellent speech on the scanlations, SJA, etc. There's one thing I'd like to add.

Much of the conversation about making anime and manga more available and more quickly speaks of Japanese publishers as though they are stuck by themselves in a little atavistic bubble separate from the entire world. But we're talking about the same stuff that huge international multimedia empires haven't caught up with yet either. Talk to a fan of US-produced shows living outside North America and you'll hear a very familiar litany of complaints. Or talk to your nearest North American fan of Top Gear*, Doctor Who, or any other BBC-produced show.

As ridiculous as the situation is all around, I think that as long as the big guys can't get it right, we need to take a deep breath and cut the Japanese publishers a little slack.

* For example: The BBC's current best for distributing Top Gear to the US is now to make us wait a mere two months or so after an episode first airs in the UK before we can about two-thirds of it on BBC America. It's a 1-hour show without commercials in the UK, and a 1-hour show with commercials in the US. The cuts this requires are so severe, sometimes one of the three presenters completely vanishes from an episode. Oh, you wanted to see the whole thing? You'll have to wait until we release the DVDs, at $25 for a season of 6-8 episodes.

While I'm waiting, I'm watching 2 shows which are being made available on legal streams within a week of their Japanese airings, with subtitles. Seriously, Japan is really ahead of the curve in some ways.

Quote:

But we're talking about the same stuff that huge international multimedia empires haven't caught up with yet either. Talk to a fan of US-produced shows living outside North America and you'll hear a very familiar litany of complaints.

Never thought about it much, but yeah, that's true! The Netherlands is usually 1-2 years behind when it comes to American television.

I don't have any complaints though. I watch my favourite shows the same way I watch anime: I buy boxsets.

Hesiod wrote:

On a side note, I find it frustrating that anime/manga fans use that Gabe Newell quote as a blanket justification for the amount of piracy that goes on in the community. While it is relevant for MangaStream and Shonen Jump Alpha, it has no relevance for fans who use HorribleSubs and have access to Crunchyroll.

One important point about the Gabe Newell quote is that the fact that there are advantages offered by bootleg distribution services predicts that there will be bootleg distribution, and the greater the advantage are for the more market segments, the more bootleg distribution there will be.

So the quote points to what legitimate distributors can do about piracy: narrow the quality of service gap where you can, reverse the quality of service gap where you can, and you will then see more of those same people who were accessing bootlegs accessing the legit distribution instead.

Crunchyroll is a good f'rinstance for that ~ there was a "why did you sign up" question in the premium member forums, and since the premium member forums have much lower activity, people would regularly wander by, see the forum question, and answer it. And while "support the industry" showed up, stream quality, convenience, and support for different devices also showed up. Some people explicitly said "I don't worry about that support the industry stuff but I like Crunchyroll because ...".

But the quote predicts consumer behavior, and focuses on what legit distributors can do about it. It is not a justification for that behavior. The fact that many consumers will trample the rights of creators when it is more convenient to do so does not excuse trampling those rights.

HeeroTX wrote:

Answerman wrote:

And honestly, I've never really agreed with the argument that there's a large group of fans who just "will never buy anything anyway." Because a pretty solid percentage of those fans whose only exposure to anime is through fansubs and scanlations will gleefully spend the money to go to conventions, make costumes, and so forth. And that's not cheap. It costs a pretty penny to rent a hotel room in Baltimore, or to purchase enough plastic and PVC pipe to construct your own sword from Bleach.

Answerman: do you still go to conventions (aside from for "work")? I only ask because it seems like a lot of ANIME fans (people who watch and truly enjoy ANIME) do not. Why? Because they're full of a bunch of internet-meme spouting brats. How much cosplay now is taken with "Homestuck" or "Ponies" or "Dr Who" or various video game franchises? I'd say your odds are at LEAST 50/50, if you swing your arm out at an anime con you'd hit someone who would have no issue admitting that they either haven't watched any anime in the last 3-5 years or even ever.

While I can't comment on the state of conventions as the only one I attend on a vaguely steady basis is Comiket if I happen to be in Japan at the time (though I do see conventions referring to the people who do those 'abridged series/That Guy With the Glasses' things on YouTube as "celebrity" guests' so maybe you're right, yeesh), I will say it's definitely true the bulk of anime fans don't go to them. Just comparing the turnstile numbers to the amount of download hits a fansub gets is proof of that. Though conventions are growing each year so it at least shows the fanbase is still expanding even if sales are down. I think it's common knowledge the majority of anime fans are pirates.

Also, Answerman overlooks one simple fact: you can't pirate a convention. You can't pirate cosplay. You can't pirate those sexy little PVC figures. I know plenty of people who don't pay a dime for anime and manga, yet will drop hundreds on PVC figures of the characters and other merchandise. They can watch/read for free easily enough, but they need to fork over money for the merchandise.

In that regard, it's not too bad. You can just equate it to someone who watched the show on TV or DVR in Japan and consider it advertising for the merchandise. And before someone mentions "ratings", keep in mind unless you're a participant in the ratings system (which is very few select people), your TV being tuned to that show has zero effect on the ratings.

Keep in mind the western anime fandom is one of the most spoiled communities on the planet for one simple fact: nothing that happens in the west really matters at the end of the day. Japan doesn't look at sales in America and make it's decisions based on that. What only matters is how much the series does in it's home country. Anime and manga lived for decades before it even got big in the US, and it'll live on even after it leaves (or more accurately, the licensing companies fold, since fansubs will still be going strong). That's the true fault of the comparison: American comics, shows, and video games don't have that luxery, which is why they're so concerned about piracy. All piracy really affects in the US is companies like Viz and Funimation, so people should be more concerned about supporting them than the original creators.

Last edited by ninjaclown on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

Well said, agila 61.

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