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WRT dubs and ADR, although it has improved by leaps and bounds--except for most girls--I do watch some dubbed, one thing I think that can contribute to unnatural language or odd phrasing at times that Brian touched on is timing

Specifically, the lip flaps and scene are animated and timed to the original Japanese script. To match that, not just beginning and end of a line, but all the pauses in between, it seems lines can get pretty awkward, especially the more pauses or hesitation it has

I don't know if it bothers other people or if anyone else notices it, but one thing that stands out for me is the conspicuous lack of contractions in many cases, which I don't know has to do with aforementioned timing issue or maybe I don't watch enough dubs.

Either I'm deaf or something else, because I've never noticed any of this bullshit about "unnaturalness" in dubs. Maybe if you'd stop seeing problems where there are none, you could actually judge dubs on their own merit.

Chagen46 wrote:

Either I'm deaf or something else, because I've never noticed any of this bullshit about "unnaturalness" in dubs. Maybe if you'd stop seeing problems where there are none, you could actually judge dubs on their own merit.

I'm comparing dubs right on their own merits. In fact I'm not even comparing them to the Japanese. I'm comparing them to the level of naturalness found in WESTERN cartoons (which is one of the reasons why I mentioned how I noticed a lack of contractions)

I read on "Hey Answerman!" that "The Secret World of Arrietty" just got to number four. That's good news! It's a good anime for everyone to see. I hope it does even better.

Quote:

BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* A LEGAL OPTION.

Two words: Candy Candy

(And I do own about 30 Japanese DVDs and Blu-Rays, not to mention other merchandise.)

Quote:

BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* A LEGAL OPTION.

... what exactly is Answerman talking about here, since obviously that is not the case with anime. (context seemed to be switching back and forth with US shows)

configspace wrote:

Quote:

BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* A LEGAL OPTION.

... what exactly is Answerman talking about here, since obviously that is not the case with anime. (context seemed to be switching back and forth with US shows)

I think he's trying to say you can import the anime from Japan even if it isn't available in your country... which obviously isn't really viable unless you speak Japanese.

RyanSaotome wrote:

configspace wrote:

Quote:

BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* A LEGAL OPTION.

... what exactly is Answerman talking about here, since obviously that is not the case with anime. (context seemed to be switching back and forth with US shows)

I think he's trying to say you can import the anime from Japan even if it isn't available in your country... which obviously isn't really viable unless you speak Japanese.

Could always import figures or other things that don't require language to enjoy.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the anime community that actually TRIES to avoid illegal pirating, and agrees with this week's statements of Answerman.

I have imported films from other countries (not just anime, but other animated films such as Nocturna).

I imported the legal version of the film "One Stormy Night" from Hong Kong (the only country that had a legal copy of the film with English subtitles).

Truthfully, I don't understand piracy AT ALL. I mean...now sites (such as Funimation, Hulu, and Crunchyroll) are even putting shows UP FOR FREE, and yet, people STILL pirate these shows. WHY?!
The most common argument I've received is that: "Oh. Those websites have commercials in their videos."

...but you know what? That's how the artists make a profit! The commercial companies pay Funi or Hulu a certain amount so that YOU can watch their stuff FOR FREE.
...I mean, how easier do they have to make it for you guys? Seriously? Jeez!

I waited a few extra months to see Madoka Magica on Hulu, and I've waited as long as 5 years to see some anime films get released in the states. I try to do everything by the book, just so I can support Oda, or Miyazaki, or Kon, or any of the other greats from Japan that put their time and effort into these shows and films you guys claim to "love" so much.

I always try hard to support my animation buddies, a lot of animators in the states have been struggling because of pirating too. You guys can whine and moan about how my opinion is wrong, but honestly, I don't really care. Deep down inside, I KNOW there are several animated shows and films I will never see because I don't pirate stuff. I'm OK with that. It's a small price to pay to know that (in the long run) I did what was right, and I was one of the few people actually trying to fight against piracy in the animation industry.

I have no sympathy toward pirates...unless their name is Monkey D. Luffy.

Very Happy

configspace wrote:

Quote:

BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* A LEGAL OPTION.

... what exactly is Answerman talking about here, since obviously that is not the case with anime. (context seemed to be switching back and forth with US shows)

He's trying to say that there are legal means to watch what you want and go seek them out. Unfortunately, as some of us have proven, Answerman has committed a fallacy.

For example, Sazae-san began airing on October 5, 1969. 6,345+ episodes later, and there is no single legal VHS, DVD, or streaming option available to watch past episodes. If you even want to see the episodes pre-1980's.......good ****ing luck!!!

configspace wrote:

Chagen46 wrote:

Either I'm deaf or something else, because I've never noticed any of this bullshit about "unnaturalness" in dubs. Maybe if you'd stop seeing problems where there are none, you could actually judge dubs on their own merit.

I'm comparing dubs right on their own merits. In fact I'm not even comparing them to the Japanese. I'm comparing them to the level of naturalness found in WESTERN cartoons

I'm one of the biggest dub fans around, and even I have to admit that you're right. It's not even anime thing specifically, it's just, in all truth, the best dubs have trouble standing up against pre-lay; it's basically apples to oranges anyways since the work and skills required are different.

Post-lay (dubbing) just has so much working against since it's difficult to make a character yours. An anime character is nothing more than an empty husk that an actor - English or Japanese - must fill with their talent. There are lines they must specifically say in certain amount of time to match what is already drawn. Even if the actor gets an amazing performance, the character still mostly belongs to the script the actor used.

Meanwhile, an actor doing pre-lay work for a cartoon owns that character from the beginning. Heck, there are numerous examples characters that are drawn to resemble the actor voicing them. The character's mouth, their motions, their tone, everything are drawn to reflect the performance of the actor, not vice versa like in dubbing.

All that said, I find the majority of English to be at least good (which I don't mean as an insult in anyway) and I can appreciate them tremendously from all points - acting, writing, and directing. Even though I accept that there are built in handicaps to dubbing that gives pre-lay a huge advantage, I wouldn't take anything away from the numerous great dubs out there.

Quote:

(which is one of the reasons why I mentioned how I noticed a lack of contractions)

That has always bothered me, and it's not a timing thing. It can be worked around fairly easily if you're willing to do it. One of the things I always focus on doing when I do scripts is make sure the high school aged characters and younger use contractions; it's just more natural, like you said. The only time I don't use contractions is when there's a formal/well-bred student or when they're talking to an adult. I think a lot of English dubs focus too much on using the most proper of proper English, when in reality, that's not how people talk. I've actually always appreciated how Funimation doesn't shy away from using slang and other forms of improper English.

man, I totally forgot there was even a Yu Gi Oh movie released here

I got into a tussle with someone on another forum over the Otameal cartoon. A blogger had dubbed the comic "brilliant," and argued that just telling people piracy was wrong wouldn't fix the problem. As the cartoon "proved," the real problem was that companies just aren't "meeting the demand."

At which point I nearly blew a gasket and did a solid rant on how that only works if the demands are reasonable. "Let me stream it with commercials so I can decide whether or not to buy it" is reasonable. "Make the DVDs available in my region" is reasonable.

"I want my show immediately as it airs, subtitled to my tastes (i.e. translated the way I want), without commercials, in high-def, for free, to own forever" is not reasonable. And the problem with modern piracy, as I've seen it working with young people, is that we have an emerging generation that is so used to getting things for free that they don't believe they should pay for it.

I used to be very bad about pirating, up until the day I worked for a fansubbing team on unlicensed projects (Michiko & Hatchin was awesome, would someone please release it?). That was when I realized how much damn work goes into releasing a translated anime series. And I realized that if someone does that for me, I want to pay them, especially since it gives them the resources and incentive to do it quickly and well.

Incidentally, on said forum, I had someone get pissy and tell me to stop trying to "guilt trip" thon with a "sob-story," because thon didn't feel bad about CEOs making millions of dollars off of Windows blah blah blah. Maybe you can argue that with some industries, but not anime. Our companies are dropping like flies.

But then again, I guess the new generation doesn't really care; they can just get it illegally.... yeesh, now I'm depressed....

Last edited by Kikaioh on Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

Melanchthon wrote:

What we have here is not a argument about piracy, it is an argument about philosophy. It is a fair argument, and I shall frame it as such, to try to avoid the namecalling and mudslinging that so often fill the threads.

The real argument is the question of where the onus lies on generating wealth from intellectual property. You, my friend, argue quite passionately that the onus lies on the consumer. I hold the onus lies on the creator. I see no clearly correct answer here, as both arguments have disadvantages to them. As I said, this is a matter philosophical differences. As an example, take a look at the differences between America and Europe over artistic creations. If I, in America, buy a book written by A-Ko, I own the work, and I can do what I want with it (apart from violating copyright of course). I can read it, resell it, display it, use it for a pillow, whatever. But in Europe, if I then resell the book to B-Ko, then I have to pay a royalty back to A-Ko. And if B-Ko then sells it to C-Ko, B-Ko has to pay a royalty to A-Ko as well. As an American, I feel this is quite unfair to the customer, but I imagine a Frenchman would feel the American system is horribly unfair to the creator. This is philosophy equivalent to our problem. One choice is unfair to the creator, and one is unfair to the consumer.

Here is how I view my solution. It is the responsibility of the creator, or his agents, to spread his creation into the market. If the creator fails to provide an option for a consumer, acting in good faith, to obtain their desired product, then the fault lies with the creator. As long as the consumer acts in good faith, then he is free of blame. The good faith is important, in the Oatmeal comic, the character does not act in good faith, because as mentioned, the show is wide-available now. Some modicum of restrain is required.

The fundamental philosophical problem with piracy is the act of viewing someone else's work without their permission. When you create a book, a painting, a song or even an anime, you should be able to decide how and under what circumstances other people get to see and enjoy it, whether you're a starving artist or a large corporation.

To this day I've never heard an argument in support of piracy that can justify the viewing of someone else's work without their permission: your "good faith" argument included.

As an aside, I also wanted to mention that I'm glad Brian is addressing the issue of piracy in his column as of late. His concerns and sentiments largely echo my own.

Asterisk-CGY wrote:

RyanSaotome wrote:

configspace wrote:

Quote:

BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* A LEGAL OPTION.

... what exactly is Answerman talking about here, since obviously that is not the case with anime. (context seemed to be switching back and forth with US shows)

I think he's trying to say you can import the anime from Japan even if it isn't available in your country... which obviously isn't really viable unless you speak Japanese.

Could always import figures or other things that don't require language to enjoy.

I was thinking about this earlier, using merchandise purchases to offset "piracy guilt". I can dump ¥10,000 on a figure for a character from a show I've never bought or cared to buy the DVDs for, and the irony of that situation is that I end up "giving more back" to the Japanese production companies than someone who only bought the R1 release. That might be anecdotal, but it certainly happens often. /a/ even has a constant string of threads of what people purchase or want to, usually revolving around figures and the enormous amount of disposable income people are more willing to blow on PVC statuettes than home video media. I guess people you could say they have more real value than the DVDs, as they don't require language and as of now we can't pirate them easily.

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