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garfield15
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 1521
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:09 am
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willag wrote: | Oh boy, this thread calls for:
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I'm saving this.
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Quark
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 710
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:11 am
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diebuster wrote: | The issue here isn't that she disliked it because the lack of subtlety bothered her too much (OH NO, VALID CRITICISM OF AN ALL TOO COMMON FLAW IN ANIME! I am so offended.)
It's that she claimed that a voice actor for one of the characters was its only redeeming quality while she, I quote, "dumped on the animation quality" even though anyone with even the tiniest amount of animation knowledge should realize that it took far moare skill to draw and animate than the average anime. Even if the disliked its overall look, there's a pretty big difference between personally disliking the style of a work and believing that it's poorly done. A reviewer who is unable to notice above average animation quality should not be reviewing animation. |
Yeah...except that Erin actually has worked as an animator, so to suggest that she has no knowledge of animation is laughable. She defended her position on the animation of Casshern Sins on last weeks Shelf Life forum by the way. If it bugs you that much, maybe you should go mosey on over and read it and find out why she doesn't like the animation on Casshern Sins. It's definitely a lot more constructive that just blindly accusing her of not knowing what she's talking about.
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Flame-G102
Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 104
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:55 am
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Quark wrote: |
Yeah...except that Erin actually has worked as an animator, so to suggest that she has no knowledge of animation is laughable. She defended her position on the animation of Casshern Sins on last weeks Shelf Life forum by the way. If it bugs you that much, maybe you should go mosey on over and read it and find out why she doesn't like the animation on Casshern Sins. It's definitely a lot more constructive that just blindly accusing her of not knowing what she's talking about. |
Animation maybe. Art however, is a different story. The art in Sins was just plain amazing. Perhaps Erin simply didn't like it. after all, it happens. I might like Dali, while someone else might loathe Dali and prefer Picasso. I thought that the artwork was gorgeous, and very nice to look at. I never thought that a drab post apocalyptic wasteland could contain SO many colors.
In any case, I dont feel like, nor have the time- (right now anyway) to go into in depth over the review, so Ill just say simply and respectfully;
Erin, I disagree with your Casshern Sins review. :3
I will however, admit the show has a few flaws. the biggest one being the rushed ending. All exposition was crammed in the last episode, and it ends up feeling anti climactic.
Also, you mention Braiking Boss' VA.
Well I mention Casshern's own VA. He was pretty awesome as well.
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Keyl
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 144
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:56 am
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Key wrote: |
fightbait wrote: | Casshern Sins was a boring cartoon. The simple fact and bottom line that you think it's an anime masterpiece clearly shows that you have no clue what a truly great, carefully crafted, artistic Japanese animation is. |
We will stop with these kind of comments right now, as they're not only (at the least) borderline insulting, but they also practically invite an escalation to flaming. If you want to disagree that it's a masterpiece, fine, but this isn't the way to do it. This also goes for the "cartoon" discussion, too.
Concerning the series in question, I had my full say on it in my own review, so I'll only reiterate what I said in that response thread: I actually feel, in retrospect, that I may have underrated CS by only giving it a B for writing and a B+ overall, and reading Erin's review doesn't change that impression. That means I do, of course, utterly disagree with most of what Erin has said about the series in both reviews (except that I do agree with her about that weird dream episode focusing on Lyuze), but I don't have a problem with either review because I can also easily see how someone could have the kind of extreme negative reaction to CS that she did. Consider mine the "in favor of" take on the series and hers the "against" take.
And, for the record, I also generally try to avoid reading Erin's reviews when she gets to a title first that I'm planning to review. I don't like being influenced by a peer's review, either. |
to bad people will end up seeing her first (since the she reviewed the first bluray before you did both) and end up avoiding. It's a great show and one of the best of 2008. now i know people are entitled to their own opinion but the majority seem to love the show so who's right and who's wrong?
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Moonsaber
Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 343
Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:00 am
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Keyl wrote: |
to bad people will end up seeing her first (since the she reviewed the first bluray before you did both) and end up avoiding. It's a great show and one of the best of 2008. now i know people are entitled to their own opinion but the majority seem to love the show so who's right and who's wrong? |
Only if they read the article first. Instead of the review
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GWOtaku
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 678
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:07 am
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Quote: |
I want to watch Gaogaigar in my pajamas on a Saturday morning and eat sugary cereal. Fortunately, I can watch it on a Saturday night drinking beer¹ and still feel as if I'm nine years old on a Saturday morning. I don't even think kids can watch cartoons on Saturday morning any more. |
Heh. Too true.
Though I am still only halfway through Casshern, I am rather annoyed by the expressed idea in this thread that it's unreasonable to not like a show like Casshern while liking a show like GaoGaiGar. Look, GaoGaiGar is a hot-blooded super robot show with plenty of silliness to go along with it--seriously, go reread that paragraph about Geki and the Government Review Board! Just like Casshern's bleakness isn't for everyone, sure, that sort of thing isn't something everyone would enjoy. And no, its simple ambitions don't render it some great masterpiece. But if a light & fun cartoon (no, it's not a dirty word) succeeds at entertaining while a dark & serious one has a message that doesn't resonate with the same viewer, why shouldn't the light & fun show get a more favorable reaction?
A "deep" show isn't automatically better by default simply because of its ambitions. An effort that falls short to a viewer can't be dismissed by saying "but the intentions were good!" A show that knows what it's doing and succeeds at entertaining, on the other hand, has value. In short, I think it's a sad thing to be so obsessed with searching for masterpieces that you dismiss the simple pleasure of--gasp!--watching a good cartoon for fun.
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Shichimi
Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 349
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:16 am
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Keyl wrote: | to bad people will end up seeing her first (since the she reviewed the first bluray before you did both) and end up avoiding. It's a great show and one of the best of 2008. now i know people are entitled to their own opinion but the majority seem to love the show so who's right and who's wrong? |
Huh? That does seem to be rather a strange argument, there. Do you have such little respect for fellow fans that you think an article by someone on the internet will change their minds?
It's quite clear that Erin's reaction to this was highly negative, so two things will happen:
* People familiar with her style and tastes will know how to take this review, either as good reason to avoid like the plague or investigate further.
* Sensible newcomers will read the review and think 'Wow! Pretty harsh! I wonder if anyone else on this site has a take on this'
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Zin5ki
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:21 am
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Keyl wrote: | now i know people are entitled to their own opinion but the majority seem to love the show so who's right and who's wrong? |
If one is willing to classify a person's opinion as a thing of a subjective sort, as is fortunately quite common on this board, then one must either admit that every opinionated person is right — including both Erin and Casshern Sins fans — or else that it is not possible for a person to be right or wrong in this context. I do not present this dichotomy in a very formal or critically watertight manner, though one hopes it comes across as relatively straightforward.
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redcar
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 172
Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:22 am
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Keyl wrote: | now i know people are entitled to their own opinion but the majority seem to love the show so who's right and who's wrong? |
This is an opinion piece. Right and wrong have nothing to do with it. Please use the article and its associated discussion to form your own opinions on the series addressed.
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gartholamundi
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 316
Location: Gainesville, FL
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:31 am
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erinfinnegan wrote: |
I love Kaiba, too bad it's not available legally.
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Amen, sister!
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Chrno2
Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:37 am
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Didn't expect GGG to be shelf worthy. Good news to me. I love GGG. It's a fun show. It's probably the one series that I was ever curious to watch and fell in love with. And I'm not a big mecha hound. But I have my moments.
I hope that one day 'MB' will consider bringing over the OVAs that mark the FINALE of the series. It's really worth seeing. The series itself isn't complete without those OVAs. In many ways, GGG marks the end of an era of the "over the top" robot shows. However 'Gainax' brought it back with 'GB2' and 'Gurren Lagann'.
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hikaru004
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 2306
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:44 pm
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Well, reviews are opinions after all. It seems to me that if she hated the first part that much, she wasn't going to like the second part.
Can ANN have a more balanced review of part 2 completed by someone else?
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kakitamike
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 183
Location: Akron, OH
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:05 pm
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Casshern Sins put me to sleep. I had to wake myself up through 3 episodes before I gave up.
I don't mind slow shows. Mushi-shi is pretty slow, and that 's probably in my top 10.
Casshern Sins is just boring. The dialogue seemed flat. I get tired of the director explaining things to its audience and that's pretty much all this show does. And this doesn't really strike me as a kids show(though I don;t know it's japanese demographic) so I don't see why they feel the need to spell everything out.
The art, while good, was not to my particular tastes. You can have a bad drawing of a gravel parking lot, and a good drawing of a gravel parking lot, but neither one is particularly engaging to look at.
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Cheesecracker
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 240
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:14 pm
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Obviously, Erin does not have the gift of prophecy. For if she did she would have just avoided Casshern all together.
On one hand-It's been said that a review is just the opinion of the reviewer, subjective in nature. Suck it, if you disagree.
On the other hand-It's been said that a strong reaction(good or bad) is better than none and, in it's own way, a success. So, in a way, Erin's review is actually a positive one. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
On the extra hand-Somewhere between the singular nature of the reviewer's opinion and the degree to which people honestly disagree-don't be such troll-bait. Some people are just big red honey flavored buttons that troll-bears love to lick. Some troll-bait are so sensitive they go off on their own(while licking their wounds).
So anyway, the point is: Is anime really so homogeneous(sp?) that one reviewer is really suitable to review all anime? I think there at least a few (rumored) sub-genres in existence(anyone heard of MOE!?!).
It felt like reading a review for a Jonahs Bros CD in a Swedish death metal magazine(perhaps more the other way around-Casshern's musical equivalent might be goth...reviewed in Tiger Beat magazine).
I know ANN is not about to hire a reviewer for each genre and reviewing is not supposed to be preaching to the choir, but it's hard to see the criteria of a 'good' review being when the reviewer is having such a strong visceral reaction.
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agila61
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:34 pm
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Zin5ki wrote: |
Keyl wrote: | now i know people are entitled to their own opinion but the majority seem to love the show so who's right and who's wrong? |
If one is willing to classify a person's opinion as a thing of a subjective sort, as is fortunately quite common on this board, then one must either admit that every opinionated person is right — including both Erin and Casshern Sins fans — or else that it is not possible for a person to be right or wrong in this context. |
Both Erin and Casshern SINS fans are right about whether or not they liked the show. Those Casshern SINS fans who wish to stay on that level can say why they liked the show. As long as the claim is "I liked the show because ...", then even if someone finds a quibble with the "...", there's no conflict with Erin's review.
But forums are conflict magnifiers, and the conflict arises when fans of the show want to go to the "not only do I like it, but nobody should dislike it" level and start to go into why Erin's report on her reaction to the show is a wrong reaction.
Of course, those arguments are strained, because behind whatever quibbles there are on points Erin raised when detailing her reaction, in the end the reviewer some of the reasons that undermined the reviewer's enjoyment of the show seem to be fairly fundamental features of the show.
So, at the level of "I find the show to be entertaining / not entertaining because ...", both sides can easily be right. At the level of "Everyone should find the show to be entertaining because ...", its very hard for anyone to be right ... but Erin made no such claim.
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