Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Re:Zero -Starting Life in Another World-
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Iron Maw
Posts: 492 |
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Rem loves him because she views Subaru as hero, not beause she knows him, tells him that striaght out. It's exact same principle why he loves Emilia, because of her empathetic side which led her to him. His feelings are not anymore groundless than hers. This comming from someone who fine with either pairing.
I don't get it. Ep 18-24 was entirely bulid up for that moment.
If she hadn't saved him back in alleyway in arc 1 those would probably killed him like they did in the 3rd loop. As we seen in thos series not a single person among the cast outside maybe Reinhard would habe done that, because they would have too self-adsorb in their problems or deemed not worth bothering with because he was a stranger. She also spent the entire night in last loop of Arc 2 healing his life-threating wounds until her mana nearly ran out, which put her life at risk. Even back in ep 17 after they fight had their she went look after him and hear out his problem. That's not bring the other things she did. Emilia was certainly less fanatical than Rem when came to supporting him since she was driven by love, but those things were all important to him. They weren't things she had to do, but things Emilia did because she is that kind of person she is. That side is what Subaru loved about her, it home the moment she went to help the lost child back in ep 1 and ep 3 despite the severeity and ugrent of her own problems. Last edited by Iron Maw on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Subaru calling on the Witch to get rid of Betelgeuse's possession really bothers me, because just an episode or 2 ago, he told the whole team that he feared that he would be possessed and asked them to help him come up with a solution for it. How could they help him figure out that invoking Return by Death would get rid of Betelgeuse if he can't tell the team about Return by Death?!. All they know about Subaru's connection with the Witch, afaIk, is that he "smells" like the Witch and can increase that scent to attract Mabeasts and the like. They have no idea that the Witch would kill him or someone around him by invoking RbD. If he came up with the idea on his own, what was the point of asking the group? I really liked that scene, it showed how collaborative Subaru has become, but the solution he came up with undermines it.
A more minor complaint, how did Subaru know that writing "owari" in the gospel would get rid of Betelgeuse? And why did it work? Overall, the series was great. I do share some of the concerns that Subaru's "love" of Emilia comes off as more of an obsession with someone's he's put on a pedestal, and his interaction with the other ladies on the show give off a harem impression--from Rem's obsession with him, to Crusch's excessive praise and insistence that she's not interested in him romantically. Do military allies usually have to specify that? More than anything else, I want another season! |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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EXACTLY. So, what I'm saying is unless the first loop itself was UNIQUELY special (ie. Emilia ("Satella") was responsible for giving him his ability in THAT loop) unless that is true, then loop 1 ends like loop 3 and he just restarts without ever having met "Satella". Knowing that he has "return from death" power cheapens the "you saved my life" aspect, especially if you want to consider that MANY of his deaths are a result of him TRYING to save hers. It should also be noted that while Subaru likely gets beaten up and robbed without Emilia in loop 1, I question whether or not he'd DIE. In loop 3 when the street punks kill him, it is accidental and they also freak out about it. I don't think they were (or planned to be) murderers. (unlike Elsa, who kills him MULTIPLE times while he's trying to help Emilia)
This is entirely why I feel like the Betelgeuse possession thing SHOULD have been resolved in a single loop, or should have taken much longer than it did. Considering the episode count, I think the best solution would have been "single loop". An interesting take would have been if Subaru had (out loud) asked would Betelgeuse 'return by death' if in his body and that had then prompted the same result, but "accidentally".
I honestly think was more "for dramatic effect" rather than "effective". BUT if I was going to make an argument I would sat that Betelgeuse says (or BELIEVES) that what is written in his gospel is prophecy... (nothing is ever said about HOW or by whom) Last edited by HeeroTX on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CheezcakeMe
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Yes, the end game was obviously to save Emilia. I'm talking about emotional payoff for the love confession at the very end. In episodes 18-24 Emilia and Subaru speak a whopping one time, and he's disguised at the time. Subaru says he loves Emilia but why? What does he like about her except that he thinks she's a nice girl? They haven't really had any "moments" like he did with Rem. Sure she "saved" him way back in the beginning, but so did Reinhard. Why doesn't he love Reinhard? What I'm saying is I want to know more about Emilia and be given a reason to care about EmiliaXSubaru and I haven't. Subaru and Rem had a whole episode dedicated to just their relationship but Emilia and Subaru get nothing but a stilted empty three minute love confession (that Subaru ripped off from Rem) at the very end if the show. Man I hope this gets a season 2. So many unanswered questions, and I don't think we ever even met another elf. The light novels I shall be buying just in case the anime ends here. Last edited by CheezcakeMe on Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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This more than anything is why I think it is CRITICAL that Emilia IS Satella. At the beginning, Satella meets Subaru, saves him from some toughs and generally takes time to help him even though she is trying to do something else that is time critical. What follows is a pretty long stretch of time that Subaru and Satella spend together (which we only see part of). During that time together, they talk about each other a bit and (if Emilia=Satella) she opens her heart to him by explicitly STATING the "worst" thing about herself, that she is "Satella". The fact that Subaru doesn't really know anything about her at that time doesn't really matter, the fact that she is willing to ADMIT it means that they had a pretty good connection. She is then REALLY happy that he not only doesn't recoil but instead says that her name is nice. If you think about it, it makes episodes 1 & 25 into nice bookends where in both episodes he affirms her worth, but in different ways. (an interesting question would be which is actually more "valuable", by accepting "Satella" Subaru accepts who she REALLY is without any contempt, but in fairness, he doesn't really know anything about "the witch", OTOH, in the finale he says he loves HER and actually knows more about her, but he loves "Emilia" which may NOT be who she ACTUALLY is) Unfortunately, ALL of that is erased when he dies (the first time) and is reset (to before they met). So for HIM, they had a really good connection and for HER, they did as well, but SHE lost that whereas he maintains. The same happens early in the second arc where he gets agreement for a "date" but then loses it when he resets. Subaru HAS built the relationship a pretty good amount, unfortunately, Emilia keeps losing it. But all of the work and interactions remain with HIM. In that sense, it's like "One Week Friends", he is much closer to her than she is to him, but that's only because he REMEMBERS all the time they've spent together whereas she does not. |
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Iron Maw
Posts: 492 |
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Well, to begin with Crusch isn't a military commander, but a noble lady with a sense of decrum and bearting that is different from the norm. Second she merely clafiying her wording so Subaru take her sincere admiration the wrong way. They even joke a little about it an obivious sense awareness. That aside it never turns into harem, I say this as someone has future knowledge of later events.
But that is where the narrative disagrees with you. Death is still huge deal to Subaru, he hates dying and always tries live each loop like his last because knows nothing about his power beyond what has been able to gleam. There has never an instance where he acts it's not a problem. That is why he's still grateful to both Emilia and Rem saving him because he values his life and relationships. Last edited by Iron Maw on Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Iemander
 Posts: 443 |
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I can get how Sabura is interested in Emilia. Subaru has known Emilia for a very long time, through each successive retry he's been invested in her, working for her and seeing her die multiple times. She's also the one that "found" him first, making it easy for him to get focused on her character. I don't really have a problem with this.
What I do have a problem with, is Rem and how she basically only knows Subaru for a short while and not just falling in love with him, but getting into a totally unbalanced slave like position where she simply does everything for him with nothing in return. I understand Japan is a sexist country and Rem is some kind of wet dream for otakus, but I find this pretty disturbing. Subaru and Rem probably only know each other for just a few weeks or something. At least Emilia levels with him, they talk about each other's expectations, get into fights, etc. My favorite character is actually Cruche. She's actually the one that "teaches" Subaru the most and has been his best ally so far. She forces Subaru to the edge of his ability and with that, is also able to get the best out of him. Julius is similar, but more in a typically male competitive manner. |
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Gistradagis
Posts: 96 |
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He doesn't ask them to come with a solution. He simply comments that he can probably get possessed by the witch, and they are all like "da fudge are you telling us now man?" and we cut into the action itself. So it's pretty much implied that he comes up with the plan himself and tells the others that he's got an idea for it. Writing "owari" doesn't do anything. Subaru does it as a symbolic gesture, to tell Beetlejuice that the fight is over and he refuses to lose and die anymore. What kills Beetlejuice is the whole fighting, getting stabbed, smashed by rocks, then burnt alive. Probably helps, too, the mental blow of getting rejected by the Witch.
It's because Rem is substituting Ram for Subaru as her reason for living. Do realise that, after the second arc, Rem doesn't actually get over her trauma about childhood, her sister losing much of her powers, and feeling extremely guilty and torn up for it (hence why she's always going about how Ram is the very best even though Rem pretty much outclasses her at everything). At the end, Subaru's heroics simply make her switch the source of both her identity and pain. She no longer depends on her sister for a reason for living... but only because that job is now Subaru's. And so, we have that super drastic change and Rem very readily and easily be willing to give up her whole past life for Subaru. |
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Iron Maw
Posts: 492 |
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This might be news to you, but Re:Zero is 25 episodes, not 9. And as I have been he loves because of who she is, specifically her empathetic personality who looks out for others. The same reason why Rem loves him, because of his heroic side and determine to protect those he loves. Why doesn't he love Reinhard then? Besides the obvious reason of not being gay, Reinhard isn't Emilia, nor has he did all the other things she did for him. Turning you logic back at you why doesn't Rem love Reinhard who exhibits similar traits? Because he wasn't the one who saved her. The reasons he wore a disguise when he went see her because he taken what Ferris said to him to heart in ep 23. Rather than rushing to save her reckless, doing what he can to support her indirectly, because she too is trying her best to help everyone in her own way.
How much you know about her does not change what she has done. You know as much about Subaru's past and you do Emilia's (much more about Rem) , but does that change the validity of his deeds, depth of his characterization? Or he's development? No. All of Subaru's and Emilia's moments happened in the first cour before they had split and where spread over several episodes. The SubaruxRem moment you speak of (i.e ep 18) was still about Emilia at the heart of it because Subaru never saw Rem in romantic light nor did his feelings for Emilia ever change. it was entirely one-sided on her part and moreover that episode was about Subaru himself becoming aware of all his flaws including how he had treated Emilia back at Royal Election opening ceremony. That why his approach to her and everyone else is completely different and showcases his maturity and willingly to be a better person and do right. That change and development with Subaru culminated in his reconciliation with her. It served more than just him confessing of his feelings but restart of their relationship. He did what he should done in back in ep 13 which was be honest with her like Rem was with him instead of making excuses. He did it without asking for anything in return other than making her aware of it. Last edited by Iron Maw on Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Which is why (as others have said) Emilia "saving his life" is next to meaningless, MULTIPLE people have done it. Yes, it has meaning to Subaru, BUT Emilia is not "best girl" simply because she's saved his life, if she were, Rem has done so more often than her since then.
As Gistradagis noted, I don't think its "sexist" when you consider that aside from her romantic feelings it's pretty much the EXACT same thing as she has with Ram, but actually with less starting "baggage" (ie. always being compared to her). But beyond that, It's worth noting that the two "main" girls in Subaru's life (so far), he has affirmed their "worth". I already noted such with Emilia, he does the same (sort of) thing with Rem. Subaru acknowledges and accepts Rem for HERSELF, something almost no one in her life has done. If you are someone who has always felt like others think you should never have existed, it's a HUGE deal to be told of your own importance and to have someone tell you they really WANT you in their life. |
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Iron Maw
Posts: 492 |
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Then in case Rem saving him is irervlant regardless if she done once more than Emlila. Futhermore unlikely Emilia she killed and tortured him which are far bigger deal then she saving him. That said you missing my point completely. Those may be meaningless to YOU but their aren't to HIM.
This exact same thing Subaru does with Emilia. He actions and confession had shown her that he was someone who saw her as not a "half elf", "a sliver haired witch", or even "candidate" for the throne, but as Emilia. Just Emilia and not a label. |
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Iemander
Posts: 443 |
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It's fun to watch the first episode again by the way. The first time I saw it as a viewer, I didn't really understand the half elf and Jealous witch thing. I actually misunderstood the part where she calls herself Satella, thinking she's the witch in disguise.
But actually she was just continually prodding and testing Subaru and see if he could get some discriminating reaction out of him. |
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Iemander
Posts: 443 |
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It's funny that you say it that way. Because the entire point of the third arc was how Subaru shouldn't rely on Emilia to make him feel happy. He should just do what he thinks is best but do it with respect of others. And then Rem basically just follows him around like a dog. She does the exact opposite of what Subaru is trying to do, she doesn't think independently, she's completely reliant on how he acts towards her to make her happy, etc. Anyway, it's not that bad. Rem's character is charming in it's own right, but I don't feel very comfortable with her relationship with Subaru at all. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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IMO, Rem didn't lose her devoted personality when Subaru "saved" her. Instead, she lost her self-loathing. Yes, her relationship with Subaru isn't very healthy, but it is *far* better than where she was with her sister, and there is the possibility now for further change in the future, which wasn't the case, IMO, before she met Subaru.
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Iemander
Posts: 443 |
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Just some more thoughts about the series.
I didn't like the portayal of Emilia tho. She says she's ashamed of her heritage and how everyone treats her badly and as an outcast. However, I don't really see this. Sure she was called out for it a couple of times. But she was also just wandering around the city, not covering her ears or trying to hide her heritage or any of her features. And no one really reacted to it. For people that know Spice and Wolf, I vastly prefer how Holo was manoevering herself to make sure no one would know who she really was. |
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