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Ryan A didn't say he liked Free -at least not in the post you linked-, he said otaku liked it, which most otaku who hated Free before it aired (Ryan S included IIRC) are saying now to justify its amazing sales: "It's not successful because women buy it (because women don't buy anime and are irrelevant to the industry), it's successful because otaku like it".

But I'll leave it there because this is not a Free! or Ryan thread, we should just wait for Tony K. to confirm either way

You make a good point ATastySub. It was disingenuous.

CrowLia wrote:

But I'll leave it there because this is not a Free! or Ryan thread, we should just wait for Tony K. to confirm either way

I agree.

I have already sent the PM to Tony K. and so there is nothing more to do but wait for his answer.

@ 504NOSON2 - gee, thanks for the once again contributing a whole bunch of stupid and irrelevant points. Your cluelessness is undiminished.

504NOSON2 wrote:

The whole notion of forcing RyanSaotome to admit he was wrong -- not him doing it of his own commitment, especially when all he had to do was type a few words to save his account -- seems almost as pointless as when parents force their children to apologize for lying, when the kids are only sorry they got caught: it's completely pointless because he isn't sorry, and hopelessly ironic, because you're just making him lie, again.

Well, genius, I guess this never occurred to you, but disciplining Ryan was never intended to be for his benefit. It's for ours. Nobody here is under any delusion that Ryan is capable of changing his grotesque views. That would require intelligence and character on his part, so you can see how impossible that would be. So forcing Ryan to admit he was lying or face a ban rewards US because we know he has to do something he doesn't want to do or face being banned. Either way WE win. I suppose if you had even a minute grasp of human psychology, you'd understand this incredibly simple point.

504NOSON2 wrote:

The corporate world of the idol industry can really only merit these claims of being "effed up" and "wrong", if it were a coercive system (i.e. slavery, working animals, military conscription, etc). However, these females join the industry, of their own volition, which only last for a few years at most, knowing full well the expectations, and choose to take the idol route, as apposed to the alternatives.

Oh for Christ sake. Why do you and your a person I disagree with politically pinhead buddies continue to miss our point? YES, WE KNOW HOW THE IDOL SYSTEM IN JAPAN WORKS. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. However - and this utterly astonishes me - YOU don't seem to understand that a lot of us find that system UTTERLY REPUGNANT. That females voluntarily join it, also understanding what is expected of them, DOESN'T MAKE IT LESS REPUGNANT IN OUR EYES. That's so goddamn simple, why can't you understand that? Sure, we could adopt the same smug, a-holish attitude that you and Ryan take and say, "well, that's just the way it is, hur-hur-hur" and "those limpdicked boys who perpetuate the idol system have a perfect consumer right to act that way, hur-hur-hur" but since we aren't pathetic sociopaths, we don't.

And you are absolutely incorrect in your contention that misogyny is not the right word to use in connection with this topic. It is the perfect word to describe how you and Ryan feel about women. You cannot be so warmly supportive of the Japanese idol system - so blithely unmoved by the complete ridiculousness of it - without, at your core, hating women. It's impossible. If you didn't have feelings of misogyny you'd be on our side, not Ryan's.

But hey, I give you 10 out of 10 for your small type invoking of fascism!

Rolling Eyes

Mister Ryan Andrews wrote:

Galap wrote:

Yes, but that's STUPID.

That kind of argument won't win you any awards, mate Razz

CrowLia wrote:

It's not only that it's stupid and draconian, it's that it boggles the mind how people have completely assimilated the practice, to the point in which "that's just how it is" and no one even questions WHY

No one needs to question why because people who know how the industry works already know why. Seriously, this isn't some grand mysterious concept that requires the mind of a college student who thinks they know how the world works after a semester of classes. It's literally in their contract they sign with the company and the image the industry is is founded upon. It's no different than any other job having its own set of requirements and expectations. Lavnovice9 brings up a great point: go be a non-Idol singer if you hate idol industry so much. This is what being an idol is. Idols are build on purity, late night anime is based on disk sales, Kamen Riders are built on appealing to middle aged Japanese house wives, and the wheels keep on turning.

I know I'm late but Jesus this post of yours is disturbing. Yes, we onow it's in the contract. We don't CARE about that part, we care about how the contract itself is horrendously creepy and disturbing a d is designed to pander to the base desires of manchildren so socially maladjusted they can't handle any woman who isn't a perfect pure maiden. The fact that you're incapable of realizing what it is we're arguing is honestly very unnerving.

Nigga you are literally saying "slavery is acceptable because it involves a contract". Don't try to deny it, that's the logical expansion of your argument to the extreme, now man up and admit it.

Is Aya Hirano really an Idol?
I know that she is in the general sense that she is a celebrity who is idolized by many, but is she a professional idol?

Aya Hirano is a singer and an actress. I thought that "idol" was a different career that might include some singing and acting but focused primarily on modeling and publicity.
I also thought that an idol worked for one agency that handled all aspects of her career, rather than having different agencies for singing and acting.

I will admit that I do not have any direct knowledge of the entertainment industries in Japan. Most of what I think that I know comes from fiction.
The title character in Fancy Lala originally gave me my impression of what an idol is.
Is there anybody who actually knows what an idol is and has seen Fancy Lala? I am wondering if my impression is correct, or even close.

I am not trying to be argumentative. I am just curious about this.

Chagen46 wrote:

[Y]ou are literally saying "slavery is acceptable because it involves a contract". Don't try to deny it, that's the logical expansion of your argument to the extreme, now man up and admit it.

Slavery by definition doesn't involve a contract. If somebody wants to sign a contract covering every detail of their lives, that's their business(morality clauses aren't exactly unheard of stateside). But really, the contracts are just a symptom and not the disease, so discussing them separately is rather pointless.

Quote:

manchildren so socially maladjusted they can't handle any woman who isn't a perfect pure maiden

I'm pretty sure that insulting someone is slightly less effective at changing their opinions than posting on a board they'll never read.

That said, Touma raises a good point: did she simply break her image or was there something more specific?

Tony K., in his reply to me, wrote:

No match.

Ryan S has multiple IP addresses from which he's posted, while Ryan A has posted every single one of his from just one location. And neither IP shows up on the other's accounts.

So yeah, they aren't the same. Not that I thought they were, but it is good to have some formal confirmation.

Interesting that RyanSaotome has multiple addresses, but I guess that's neither here nor there because . . .

RyanSaotome wrote:

If I really wanted to continue posting in this thread, I'd just use my own account instead of making another one. And if I wanted to make a new account, I wouldn't make one that looked so obvious. I'm not that Ryan Andrews guy.

. . . he hasn't left us.

That's good. I don't agree with what he said but I never thought he deserved to get banned for it.

Edit: fixed a mistake where I had "accounts" instead of "addresses".

Hm. Apparently we've had an issue with the bantron. Let's try that again.

Blood- wrote:

@ 504NOSON2 - gee, thanks for the once again contributing a whole bunch of stupid and irrelevant points. Your cluelessness is undiminished.

Well, I see your reliance on ad hominem as a sound form of argumentation is undiminished. Also, the word "irrelevant" means unrelated to something, which wouldn't describe my points. Ironically, your use of the word irrelevant was, well, irrelevant.

Quote:

Well, genius, I guess this never occurred to you, but disciplining Ryan was never intended to be for his benefit. It's for ours ... So forcing Ryan to admit he was lying or face a ban rewards US because we know he has to do something he doesn't want to do or face being banned. Either way WE win. I suppose if you had even a minute grasp of human psychology, you'd understand this incredibly simple point.

Quite to the contrary. It's this understanding of human psychology that motivated my point, concerning the sense of this brutish form of discipline. It's merely a primitive desire for vengeance, or to see cheats punished, partially generated by an irrational schadenfreude, the aim to derive positive psychological states from the misfortune of others. It helps explain the entire human institution of retributive justice.

Quote:

Oh for Christ sake. Why do you and your a person I disagree with politically pinhead buddies continue to miss our point? YES, WE KNOW HOW THE IDOL SYSTEM IN JAPAN WORKS. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. However - and this utterly astonishes me - YOU don't seem to understand that a lot of us find that system UTTERLY REPUGNANT. That females voluntarily join it, also understanding what is expected of them, DOESN'T MAKE IT LESS REPUGNANT IN OUR EYES. That's so goddamn simple, why can't you understand that? Sure, we could adopt the same smug, a-holish attitude that you and Ryan take and say, "well, that's just the way it is, hur-hur-hur" and "those limpdicked boys who perpetuate the idol system have a perfect consumer right to act that way, hur-hur-hur" but since we aren't pathetic sociopaths, we don't.

Yes, I understand that "in your eyes" the system merits moral outcry, and you and your ilk are the idol abolitionists. You people have spilled more than enough e-ink expressing these sentiments. Bringing it back to psychology, it's pretty well-established, from research by Wheatley and Haidt (2005), that repugnance (disgust) directly influences moral judgment. So, for whatever reason relative to your subjective impressions of the world, the idol industry has the power to elicit the gut reaction of repugnance, and, subsequently, an alarm-like negative emotional moral response that you project onto the industry standards. Obviously, everyone doesn't feel this way, including many (perhaps most) of the idols. Even if they do, they clearly place greater value in the benefits of being an idol than the benefits being a girlfriend. Values can change, and weakness of will can also influence behavior.

Quote:

And you are absolutely incorrect in your contention that misogyny is not the right word to use in connection with this topic. It is the perfect word to describe how you and Ryan feel about women. You cannot be so warmly supportive of the Japanese idol system - so blithely unmoved by the complete ridiculousness of it - without, at your core, hating women. It's impossible. If you didn't have feelings of misogyny you'd be on our side, not Ryan's.

Speaking of understanding human psychology...

Freud himself couldn't have constructed a better theory, based on nothing more than the Psychologist's fallacy. Bravo! Your perceived ridiculousness of the system comes from the pre-colored, culturally-biased, theory-laden perspective of a Western, male radical feminist, non-wota. This isn't, what's called in practical ethics, a "no-choice situation", where only bad alternatives exist. I realize that the system may place an inconvenient expectation on its stars, but the stars weigh the options, and make an informed, consensual choice. Also, this entire argument rests on an assumption that these young women and girls actually want boyfriends and intercourse. In 2012, The Wall Street Journal reported that 59% of female respondents aged 16 to 19 said they were uninterested in or averse to sex. That's a 12% increase from 2008. So, this is more implicit ethnocentrism, and a failure to recognize important cultural/societal differences and norms when making your moral declarations.

Quote:

But hey, I give you 10 out of 10 for your small type invoking of fascism! Rolling Eyes

Do you have any remote clue what "facism" is? What exactly do my points have to do with authoritarian, racist nationalism? Laughing

...

504NOSON2 wrote:

Quite to the contrary. It's this understanding of human psychology that motivated my point, concerning the sense of this brutish form of discipline. It's merely a primitive desire for vengeance, or to see cheats punished, partially generated by an irrational schadenfreude, the aim to derive positive psychological states from the misfortune of others. It helps explain the entire human institution of retributive justice.

So how do you reconcile that with your justification of the vigilante retributive justice rained down on Hirano as 'punishment' for her 'cheat'?

Quote:

Yes, I understand that "in your eyes" the system merits moral outcry, and you and your ilk are the idol abolitionists. You people have spilled more than enough e-ink expressing these sentiments. Bringing it back to psychology, it's pretty well-established, from research by Wheatley and Haidt (2005), that repugnance (disgust) directly influences moral judgment. So, for whatever reason relative to your subjective impressions of the world, the idol industry has the power to elicit the gut reaction of repugnance, and, subsequently, an alarm-like negative emotional moral response that you project onto the industry standards. Obviously, everyone doesn't feel this way, including many (perhaps most) of the idols. Even if they do, they clearly place greater value in the benefits of being an idol than the benefits being a girlfriend. Values can change, and weakness of will can also influence behavior.

That's a fallacy. Claiming that some peoples' reasons for objecting to it are based only on repugnance doesn't justify these conditions existing. I don't think my objections are based on repugnance, rather on logic. Which state of the world is better for the idols? The state where they can't have sex due to an arbitrary set of rules, or the state where they can? The one where they are ridiculed for engaging in behavior that is positive for them or the one where they aren't? Given that our species is hard-wired to have sexual desires, and that being unable to act on them is unhealthy, clearly the state where they can do these things is better.

Also, don't you recognize that a culture where people's sexual desires are internally repressed (like the people saying they don't want boyfriends) is bad? The low birthrate in Japan is one of their biggest problems right now. It's imperative for a society's survival for its members to have enough desire for and efficacy at reproduction to at least maintain a steady state population.

504NOSON2 wrote:

Well, I see your reliance on ad hominem as a sound form of argumentation is undiminished. Also, the word "irrelevant" means unrelated to something, which wouldn't describe my points. Ironically, your use of the word irrelevant was, well, irrelevant.

And I see you still don't actually know what ad hominem means. If you are 900 pounds and I call you obese that is not an ad hominem attack - it's reality. Describing how the Japanese idol system works was stupid, clueless and irrelevant because a) we already knew how it works and b) understanding how it is constituted doesn't address our point to Ryan and others of his ilk: that the system is misogynist and not recognizing that obvious fact is ridiculous. Contending that just because the females who enter the system don't have guns to their heads that that somehow makes it alright is stupid and clueless. Further, even if I had been wrong in labeling your points irrelevant (which I'm not), my misusing the word irrelevant would not have been "ironic." Now, if I had been lecturing you about proper grammar usage while making a grammar mistake, I guess you could call that ironic. So please educate yourself on the proper meaning of words. Thanks in advance.

504NOSON2 wrote:

Quite to the contrary. It's this understanding of human psychology that motivated my point, concerning the sense of this brutish form of discipline. It's merely a primitive desire for vengeance, or to see cheats punished, partially generated by an irrational schadenfreude, the aim to derive positive psychological states from the misfortune of others. It helps explain the entire human institution of retributive justice.

So the desire to see cheats punished is "irrational?" Laughing

I myself prefer justice that is also rehabilitative as opposed to merely retributive, but I'll take retributive justice over none at all. Regardless, your point above directly contradicts your earlier assertion that forcing Ryan to insincerely apologize or face a banning was "pointless." If - as you claim - you understand the basic human delight in seeing punishment meted out to the deserving, then you would never have claimed the exercise was "pointless." It had a clear and satisfying point. Have you ever considered practicing arguing your way out of a wet paper bag? It may help you in not looking so completely foolish here.

Quote:

Yes, I understand that "in your eyes" the system merits moral outcry, and you and your ilk are the idol abolitionists. You people have spilled more than enough e-ink expressing these sentiments. Bringing it back to psychology, it's pretty well-established, from research by Wheatley and Haidt (2005), that repugnance (disgust) directly influences moral judgment. So, for whatever reason relative to your subjective impressions of the world, the idol industry has the power to elicit the gut reaction of repugnance, and, subsequently, an alarm-like negative emotional moral response that you project onto the industry standards. Obviously, everyone doesn't feel this way, including many (perhaps most) of the idols. Even if they do, they clearly place greater value in the benefits of being an idol than the benefits being a girlfriend. Values can change, and weakness of will can also influence behavior.

So is this your incredibly long-winded way of saying perspectives on the Japanese idol system differ? Wow, thanks for that blinding insight. It's true that my personal, subjective opinion that any system that requires its female employees to project an image of virginal purity because otherwise its male consumers get freaked out is inherently misogynist is just that: my personal, subjective opinion. As is my contention that anyone who is fine with that system is a putrid turd. But yes, thanks again for once again relaying the obvious.

Quote:

Speaking of understanding human psychology...

Freud himself couldn't have constructed a better theory, based on nothing more than the Psychologist's fallacy. Bravo! Your perceived ridiculousness of the system comes from the pre-colored, culturally-biased, theory-laden perspective of a Western, male radical feminist, non-wota. This isn't, what's called in practical ethics, a "no-choice situation", where only bad alternatives exist. I realize that the system may place an inconvenient expectation on its stars, but the stars weigh the options, and make an informed, consensual choice. Also, this entire argument rests on an assumption that these young women and girls actually want boyfriends and intercourse. In 2012, The Wall Street Journal reported that 59% of female respondents aged 16 to 19 said they were uninterested in or averse to sex. That's a 12% increase from 2008. So, this is more implicit ethnocentrism, and a failure to recognize important cultural/societal differences and norms when making your moral declarations.

Yep, my opinions on the Japanese idol system are ethnocentric. They are based on values that have been passed on to me by my own society. So what? The idea that a person from one culture cannot make a valid criticism of some aspect of a different culture is vacuous in the extreme. I'm not a Mayan, but I'm going to go out on a limb and voice my disapproval of using human sacrifices to mitigate the anger of the gods. ZOMG, I'M SUCH AN ETHNOCENTRIST!!!

Quote:

Do you have any remote clue what "facism" is? What exactly do my points have to do with authoritarian, racist nationalism? Laughing

...

No, I have no idea what "facism" is. I'm going to guess it is your misspelling of the word fascism? And my point about fascism was prompted by your comment that you find ANN to sometimes be controlled like a totalitarian state. It's true that fascism and totalitarianism are not synonymous terms, but I don't worry that anyone will misunderstand my meaning. Sorry, let me amend that: I don't worry that anyone who isn't a complete idiot will misunderstand my meaning.

Zac wrote:

Hm. Apparently we've had an issue with the bantron. Let's try that again.

You can't ban someone if you have no real grounds except they disagree with your opinion on something, bro.

504NOSON2 wrote:

>several looooong paragraphs of pseudo-intellectual drivel

You know, the ability of you sexists to spend an inordinate amount of ink, metaphorical or actual, and yet say absolutely nothing of value while also purporting to be the calm one here (when your "calmness" only serves to make you sound like a sociopath in light of your statements) in an pathologically passive-aggressive way must be admired.

RyanSaotome wrote:

You can't ban someone if you have no real grounds except they disagree with your opinion on something, bro.

Pretty sure admitting you straight up lie to support your messed up views and having no shame nor intent to stop doing so is a valid reason.

Also glad to hear the R in a person I disagree with politically stands for Ryan. The BEEP BOOP I am above sexism for that is logical continues to be disgusting, and ignores the fact that having empathy for other people is actually the logical response to them being treated as less than human beings.

RyanSaotome wrote:

Zac wrote:

Hm. Apparently we've had an issue with the bantron. Let's try that again.

You can't ban someone if you have no real grounds except they disagree with your opinion on something, bro.

Let's get something straight here.

I didn't ban you because you disagreed with me. Thinking so is ridiculously self-serving and disingenuous. I don't ever ban people for disagreeing with me. Period. People throw that around to try and discredit me but it's 100% false, but then, you're used to lying to try and "make your point", aren't you?

I banned you because you're a nuisance here. Your posts are constantly causing flamewars. We get near-nonstop complaints about your toxic opinions screwing up whatever thread they're festering in. You have an absolutely horrible attitude toward women and it's not conducive to creating a welcoming space for women to join the conversation here. We've had reason to ban you for months if not years just to make our community less obnoxious, but I let it go for a long time because I knew you had issues otherwise and felt it unfair.

Then you come in and tell us straight-up that you think it's OK to lie and be completely intellectually dishonest in order to "make your point", ignoring the fact that if your "point" is built on lies and bullshit you made up then your point is meaningless. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. You are a gigantic pain that we get constant complaints about and I finally decided to see you out.

Unfortunately our forums software is having an issue that needs working out. Once it's fixed, you're gone. And it has nothing at all to do with whether or not you and I agreed on anything.

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