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samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2238
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:26 pm Reply with quote
Echo_City wrote:
How I wish all video were at "real" 60 FPS or higher. Whether it be Western shows or anime on BD, 24 FPS does not seem fluid to my eye when there is much motion on screen. It annoys me greatly.

Well, then I hope you like CG, 'cause that's the only way you'll get 60 fps without your animation budget literally going up by factors of 2 or more...
You do know that 95% of anime isn't even drawn at 24 fps, right? It's mostly at 6 or 8 or 12 fps (on the 4s, or 3s or 2s), and only once in a great while are there actual unique pictures every frame.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:09 pm Reply with quote
Echo_City wrote:
How I wish all video were at "real" 60 FPS or higher. Whether it be Western shows or anime on BD, 24 FPS does not seem fluid to my eye when there is much motion on screen. It annoys me greatly.


Not possible. Animation is never drawn that fluid--hell, were the classic Disney movies even that fluid?

You cannot expect people to be able to draw that many pictures and keep everything consistent.

I just checked and the first episode of GJ-Bu on CR is exactly 23 minutes. If it was animated at 60FPS the whole way though, that's 1380 frames.

If you're expecting normal humans to draw 1380 frames each episode and keep it at a consistent level, you need to get a grip on yourself.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:27 pm Reply with quote
Classic Disney was animated for theaters, so 24 FPS is the absolute maximum it ever could've been. That said, even movies don't tend to feature that sort of animation too much - Who Framed Roger Rabbit was animated with each frame being done over again, but that's just because they couldn't skimp out on that with live action involved.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6878
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:54 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Echo_City wrote:
How I wish all video were at "real" 60 FPS or higher. Whether it be Western shows or anime on BD, 24 FPS does not seem fluid to my eye when there is much motion on screen. It annoys me greatly.


I just checked and the first episode of GJ-Bu on CR is exactly 23 minutes. If it was animated at 60FPS the whole way though, that's 1380 frames.

If you're expecting normal humans to draw 1380 frames each episode and keep it at a consistent level, you need to get a grip on yourself.
It's frames per second, not frames per minute, so the number you're looking for is 82800.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:11 pm Reply with quote
Oh damn. I knew the number I got was too tiny.

Well, that just proves me point even more. 60 FPS is ridiculous overkill for animation.
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reanimator





PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:05 pm Reply with quote
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Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 4470
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:04 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:


As for Kickstarter, I wonder if the Japanese view it along the same lines as tipping. Tipping is charity, showing that someone is incapable of doing their job proudly at the wage they earn. They won't accept tips, they won't accept "keep the change", and to press on it would be insulting them. Kickstarter, regardless of how it's viewed here, would be charity in Japan, and likely shameful to a degree. It's begging for money, isn't it? Even if it's not annoying like NPR and they're for good causes, it's still begging for money. Perhaps Yuuasa breaks the Japanese mold, but not all of them may be so Western thinking. That may not be the death of all Kickstarted anime before it begins, but it must be a massive hurdle.

So you've convinced the Japanese to accept handouts, now, animation is goddamn expensive. Unless you want to only be making mediocre slice-of-life animation quality, you'll need over $150,000 per episode. I wonder how deep Western pockets go. I believe you'll really only be able to get these nice little shorts out of established animators and their teams, no full TV series or movies.



I think you've pretty well nailed one of the big issues for crowd funding an anime. Kickstarter does send a certain amount of a "charity" vibe that probably wouldn't fly for a business in Japan. As much as I like the idea of people supporting projects that they think will be interesting, it really does come down to someone else asking for money without the usual strings attached. Even I'm fairly skeptical of somebody receiving money for a business opportunity with no obligation to repay it, so I can certainly see where a culture that doesn't embrace tipping wouldn't embrace Kickstarter.
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flawed



Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:33 am Reply with quote
You also have the mess of multitelecined [mostly in interlaced/telecined credits/hard subtitled placed over telecined video], improperly reverse telecined material than telecined [referred to as double telecined this is mostly typical of older series from mid 90s and earlier where VHS masters were used to create the digital], improper telecine to being with. Also Hybrid which mix 24p and telecined material ... You also have examples of multi-double telecined [case closed/detective conan] and improper double telecined [ranma 1/2]. Supposedly Geneon's Fushigi Yugi was actually a improper multidouble telecine ... so yea NTSC anime dvd is a fairly big mess.
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doc-watson42
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Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:19 am Reply with quote
Yupa wrote:
DrizzlingEnthalpy wrote:
Anyone who's especially interested in an in-depth breakdown of the the production process behind Japanese animation and the ways in which it differs from that of Western animation should read this terrific post Peter Chung made on the AniPages forum and his follow-up posts in the same thread. Particularly interesting to me is the sakkan's role. As Chung said, the term sakkan is usually translated as "animation director" but unlike animation directors in Western animation the sakkan spends most of his time fixing the mistakes in the other animators' drawings.


Thank you, I'll go read that topic. Animation directors aren't really directors indeed, but that doesn't make their job less important.

For those who want to know more about the jobs in an anime studio I recommend this website from someone who used to work at an anime studio.

See also "Anime Production – Detailed Guide to How Anime is Made and the Talent Behind it!" by Washu (Washu's Blog, 18 January 2011). However, a small correction:

Washu wrote:
3. Even if it is only animated with 5 frames for a second, the anime is still broadcast/played at 24fps/29fps depending on whether it's PAL or NTSC

Standard PAL is 25 fps, not 24 fps (there is a PAL/60 (60 Hz/30 fps) variant), and NTSC is 29.94 fps (precisely 30 * 1000 / 1001).

Yupa linked to Jan Scott-Frazier's "Various Positions in the Anime Industry", which I also recommend. Two more links that Washu did not include:

Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Film credits glossary
Cindy Yamauchi Part I—an interview with a longtime anime animator, which covers the intricacies of second key animation

For anime production portrayed in anime, see Animation Runner Kuromi and Animation Runner Kuromi 2, which depict the workings of a fictional anime studio. Lastly, Megumi Hayashibara's (yes, that Megumi) manga Ashita ga aru sa: Sweet Time Express (AKA Megumi Toons) is an autobiographical look into the seiyū side of the anime business.
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Kakugo



Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 163
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:51 pm Reply with quote
flawed wrote:
... so yea NTSC anime dvd is a fairly big mess.


My "favorite" is content that's a mix of 24fps telecine material and 30fps progressive, which is a somewhat common problem on shows from the early to mid '00s that combine CG with traditional animation. There is no especially good solution for that - either you keep it at 30fps and repeat every 5th frame on the "film" content, or you decimate it down to 24fps and skip every 5th frame on the "video" content. If you want to talk about being between a rock and a hard place, try that with a documentary that was shot using mixed frame-rates; guaranteed, everything you do will be wrong. Smile

But hey, it can always be worse. I've dealt with masters that were 25i > 30i conversions, complete with brand spankin' new interlaced edits! Worse yet, some of the content had a predictable 4:2 pulldown pattern with no "real" blending while some of the content had horrific frame blending you just can't unsee. Worse yet, Vol. 5 would be fixable and Vol. 7 wouldn't be. Totally random, and I can only assume it was up to whichever setting their video engineer had picked that particular day...

Probably the saddest thing I've ever seen was a "1080sf 23.98" (ie: 1080p 24) with rampant, irregular interlaced frames. Without access to the 1080i masters those were originally dubbed from, all we could do was BOB deinterlace the whole damn thing. It was deemed "good enough" for what they wanted it for, and nobody else involved cared (or likely really understood) why we requested the original 1080i broadcast masters.

In short, PAL people, we get interlaced anime because NTSC IS HARD, damn it! Razz
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14796
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:03 am Reply with quote
Seems one of the more well-known animation Kickstarter possibly-success is the Grimm Fairy Tales animated series by Zenescope/Titmouse:




Other possibilities for Kickstarter may be videogames like the next "Civilization" game.
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