Forum - View topicHey, Answerman: DOOMSDAY EDITION!
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
minakichan
|
|
|||||||||
I don't think that's always the case. There are people (sure, they're all idiots, but they exist) who pay a monthly fee to download illegal fansubs off "services" like *site name removed~Zalis* They're definitely not "downloading because they're unwilling to pay for something they can get for free." As for supporting the industry, again, the amount of money I've spent on series that I've watched through fansubs is a lot greater than the amount of money I've spent on shows that I've never seen. No, I'm not buying region 2 DVDs for every series I watch-- for one thing, my laptop doesn't play region 2-- but I am making my contribution.
(In East and Southeast Asia, you can also get Japanese-language cable anime with local subtitles. And I subscribe to Chinese satellite TV (although I'll admit the anime selection on the particular channels I have's prety limited-- I watch dramas more). Still, it's not that much of a stretch. But by doing so, it's not like I've benefitted the industry for the anime I HAVE watched at all-- I can't exactly go down the street and buy the advertised CCLemon. Which sucks. Artificially flavored Asian sugar water is the best. But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the debate at hand.) In other words, I think that if you did give fansub downloaders the exact same experience of the Japanese viewer-- paying $30 a month for general cable subscription and keeping all of the advertisements that generally aren't applicable in the States-- that in itself wouldn't make a positive dent in the actual anime industry, aside from a little smidge of money for ALL of the stations that the cable company provides. If you're going to point out an industry that's being hurt, its probably Japanese cable companies, in which case I have no response and I have lost the argument. I concede defeat. But if it's the anime industry? No, that benefits more from when I buy merchandise. As for the "We live in America" part... I... do subscribe to Netflix? But that's irrelevant. The issue of fansubs deals mostly with unlicensed anime that... isn't available on DVD yet? This isn't a Naruto fansub debate, this is a general fansub debate, and that doesn't involved licensed series. Or at least, it shouldn't. If you're going to bring that in, then it becomes a different scene. So I'm not sure what you mean. I'm an advocate of "watch the fansub-- if you like it, support the industry." There are other ways of doing that than buying DVDs that won't play on your computer. Last edited by minakichan on Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
|
|||||||||
|
Yes, I agree with Answerman that the R1 market is not going to fold. However, I mainly buy niche titles that Answerman implied were nothing but a liability here in "kidz rulz" R1. And he's right. Only sure-seller bullshit will probably survive here in dumb-as-nails R1. Thanks a lot folks. The only stuff I ever buy has been given a major bitch slap here in the R1 market. Nope, the sky isn't falling, but the only titles I ever cared about are probably on the way out. I can't wait until the R1 market is reduced to little more than DBZ and Hello Kitty wannabes. Oh, and of course a ton of harmless fansubbed content.
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||
Two problems though. That only works if its a choice between buying it and doing without, which thanks to fansubs it isn't. You might make a case that if someone would rather do without than buy Anime then they arent as much of a fan as someone who would buy. However, even in that case you're making a pretty big assumption. Who knows what situation that person is in. This is why I will once again say you should judge how much of a fan someone is on how much they like Anime.
But they are still paying less. Its a case of them downloading because they are unwilling to pay as much. Its really not all that different. I suppose that could potentially not always be the case, but if so, its gonna be something owrse then.
Yeah, but its still small potatoes. Im not saying it doesnt help, but Its no where near what they would have made if you'd bought the DVDs. Plus you would have bought that stuff anyway if you had bought the DVDs. Now if you want to say that you wouldn't have bought the DVDs if you couldnt download, thats a whole other story. I've always been of the belief that in that case you really arent hurting the industry at all. (although there may be long term effects but thats another story.) In this case, you have added a little money to the industry that you otherwise wouldnt have by seeing a fansub. However keep in mind its still small potatoes and doesnt make up for the people out there who would have bought the DVDs. Also, Im in now way saying you should buy R2 DVDs. I think importing is taking things too far. Just wait for the R1 release. If something isnt going to be released R1, then by all means see a fansub. Last edited by ikillchicken on Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
DemonEyesLeo
 Posts: 844 Location: Japan |
|
|||||||||
|
I'm really sad for what's happened to Geneon. I can only hope that their series that are still in production (Hellsing, Black Lagoon, Higurashi/When They Cry) are released sooner rather than later with the same dub cast and, in the former two's case, steller packaging.
I agree with you Zac. True fans are those who support the artists by buying what they make. Because it's true, without the fans the artist has no job and makes nothing. I'm also hoping that sometime all companies just do a huge crackdown on bootleggers. Fansubs are one thing but bootlegs are completely different. And lastly, but in this situation the least, the flake. Man, I just don't know what to say to that other than to echo Zac's response, just replace some choice words. That kind of attitude is truly the bane of anime and its fans. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Raelanura
 Posts: 49 |
|
|||||||||
I agree. Anime is more than an art form; it's a business. Artists, animators etc. do what they do not just to tell a story or whatever - they do it for a living. How can you call yourself a fan if you compromise the livelihoods of those who work to bring us anime (and of course, manga) in the first place? Feh. I can understand people who would like to support the industry but can't. Those people are as big a fan as anybody in my book. My problem is with people such as this week's flaker who have somehow convinced themselves that happily sitting back and letting the industry and its workers go broke makes them a bigger fan than those of us who will happily pay to help keep their heads above water. I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the logic. If someone could explain it to me I'd be most pleased. Well, anyway, I'm pretty crushed about what has happened to Geneon. I own more Geneon titles than anything else. The worst part for the fans (in my mind anyway) is that so many titles could well go unfinished. Our Rozen Maiden and Higurashi artboxes could forever remain half-empty. Who's going to bring us all the obscure titles now? I get bored of mainstream, and up til now, Geneon was the one-word answer. Well, I know whining about it isn't going to make a difference, but I needed to say something. For me personally, losing Geneon is a huge blow, and unless someone can fill their shoes in the obscure titles department, the effect will be permanent. In saying that though, ADV have their fair share of unusual titles such as (looking at my bookcase right now) Nanaka 6/17 and Divergence Eve. Guess I'll just have to wait and see... 
Last edited by Raelanura on Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Cowboy Cadenza
Posts: 243 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY |
|
|||||||||
I generally don't buy a DVD if I can't get it for less than $20, excluding special editions and artboxes and stuff like that. Yeah, Rightstuf's prices are high unless it's through their sales, which is really the only time I buy anything from them. Unfortunately for me, I have neither a car nor a Best Buy in walking distance when I'm at college, so I wouldn't really know about pricing at Best Buy. Regardless, I don't particularly think my "messed up" ideas are really all that messed up; I just know what the MSRP on the DVDs are when I'm buying them. Check the ANN pages for release information. $29.98 is the most common MSRP. Whatever price you can get at Best Buy is what Best Buy is selling it at, not what the company is suggesting they sell it at. I couldn't tell you why Best Buy sells ADV or FUNimation titles for less; all I ever said was that most DVDs from any of those companies have an MSRP of $29.98. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
teh*darkness
 Posts: 901 |
|
|||||||||
Hm, so, you're saying that fansubs increase the number of people who buy japanese merchandise, but still, how does that help the anime industry? If they are watching the show for free, then buying something other than the show, they're still not supporting the show. The original creators aren't seeing any money for the work they created. And I've actually run into people at Best Buy and Borders who try whispering to me that they can tell me how to get anime or manga for free... "It's called 'fansubs/scanlations,'" they say. I'm just like, "yeah, but that's stealing. I like to support what I enjoy." Then they just shrug and walk away... Now yes, I do watch some fansubs, but I only watch series I like, that I would buy if it gets licensed, which I do when it does, but if I don't really care for a series, I don't just watch it for the hell of watching it. Like these people I talk to who watch every single freaking series that comes out every season. And then they buy nothing. It's ridiculous. And the claim that they wouldn't buy it anyway, since they don't have the money, so they aren't hurting anything, is absurd. They are gaining enjoyment from watching a product created by a person or group. If they are not paying for it/have no plans to buy it when it is available, then they have no right to enjoy it for free. Simple as that. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Gnathonic
 Posts: 3 |
|
|||||||||
Even if you take out all the fansubs there would still be all the DVD rips. Also there are shows like Azumanga Daioh that wouldn't have even been licensed over here (USA) in the first place if it hadn't been for the fan base that built up around it due to fansubs. This is not to say that fansubs help/hurt the industry more, there is no way I could gather enough info to make a definitive statement on either side of the argument. This is to say that fansubs generate the market as we know it today by proving anime successful back in the days when anime came only through the mail on tapes as fansubs (in the USA). Piracy isn't going to stop with the closure of fansubing groups. That and most (based off of my knowledge) fansub groups honor the "only till licensed" policy. I know only a small handful of fansub groups that don't. I know more domestic anime DVD rip groups than I know fansub groups that don't follow that code. To be honest about the pirate problem would you rather a fansub stay around for longer than is warrant (after licensing) without the english dub, or that a DVD rip with both dubs and softcoded subtitles spring up to appease the pirates lust to have everything free? I'd rather the fansub sate enough people to prevent a DVD rip than that a DVD rip popup that even those who have to hear it in english can use to avoid purchasing the title. For the anime industry in the USA fansubs are both free advertising and a market drain. It's impossible for me to say which it is more of though. As for myself it is free advertising as I have bought or intend to buy what I have seen and liked that I would otherwise not have seen. As for manga it hardly has a problem with pirates for a list of reasons: 1. reading the paper version is easier and as thus is more pleasurable. 2. it's a bit harder to copy and sharing it digitally is more difficult (not big enough to do well in torrents and not small enough to not add up in bandwidth (these aren't that bad of problems though)) 3. manga is cheap (1vol of manga typically equals 1vol of anime plot progression wise but for about a third the cost). 4. the paper version is portable, so you can pay for portability with manga or be stuck with a scan... this doesn't apply to anime. Last edited by Gnathonic on Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Cowboy Cadenza
Posts: 243 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY |
|
|||||||||
Well, I'm not glad it's the case, but like it or not, the issue of fansubs extends beyond unlicensed anime and well into the category of licensed anime that's already on DVD. Ergo Proxy, Chevalier D'Eon, Hellsing Ultimate - all of these titles had fansubs being released while the shows were having DVDs released in the United States. I know a lot of us like to think that fansubbers stop when shows are licensed, but it just doesn't happen. Eureka seveN and Guardian of the Sacred Spirit are shows that were PRElicensed, for God's sake, and still got (or are getting) full fansub coverage. New shows like Darker than BLACK and Gurren Lagann are still being fansubbed regardless of the fact that they're licensed. I actually don't mind the concept of using fansubs to check out a new show you might be interested in, unlicensed or licensed. My argument was against people who use the "Japanese people watch it on TV for free" argument for anime as a whole, licensed and unlicensed. Yes, I've been told by someone that Azumanga Daioh was free on TV for Japanese people, so why should he have to pay for DVDs (despite the fact that you can get a cheapo thinpak these days)? I think I didn't make it clear that I wasn't just referring to unlicensed anime. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Neverwhere
 Posts: 351 Location: socal |
|
|||||||||
I wholeheartedly agree. I consider myself a fan of a great many things, not just anime - cult tv shows, science fiction novels, fantasy films, all that geeky good stuff -- and really like showing the people who create the things I love just how much I appreciate them: I buy the books, see the films, go to the conventions, and purchase licensed products to show off my fandom pride. I don't actually understand the mentality of someone who claims to be a fan, but doesn't support the people who make the things they enjoy. Yes, I watch fansubs and raws, but I also buy the dvds. I supported the fansub community in the VHS days, but I bought the tapes then as well (and believe me, I wasn't too thrilled to replace those expensive Anime Village Escaflowne tapes with dvds, but of course I'm glad I did ;- ), and I honestly don't understand why people can be so adamantly, *vehemently* against buying licensed releases. There are lots of series I wouldn't have seen without fansubs, but I would never argue that they are the ONLY way to watch anime. I want QUALITY releases, for one thing. Why on earth would I settle for grainy, interlaced, ugly visuals when I can get shiny, sparkly ones instead? 
But I'm sure I digress.  I'm certainly not made of money, but if a show is good enough, and quite a lot of them are (sadly enough for my poor bank account ;- ), I save and buy the licensed dvds. It's not that difficult to comprehend, and to be so violently opposed makes no sense, and really, just makes you look like an ungrateful person. And definitely not a fan.
Regarding Geneon...everyone is concerned -- and rightfully so -- about current shows that remain unfinished (I am worried about the fate of my SaiMono), but will popular titles like Trigun, Chobits and Akira really be allowed to go out of print? 
Edited to add: Bandai will be taking over previous Geneon releases, but is it only a temporary fix? Perhaps I'm just reading the press release incorrectly, but it does seem to be only an interim solution. So should we still be worried about older shows going the way of the dodo? I'm not panicking about anything (yet), but all this vaguery is quite unsettling. :/ Last edited by Neverwhere on Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Cowboy Cadenza
Posts: 243 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY |
|
|||||||||
Really? ...really? I'm not sure where this notion is coming from, but it sure seems like a lot of people have it. I sort of wish I could believe that. But as someone who does regularly watches fansubs and knows of at least 40 or 50 different fansub groups, I can only name maybe 4 or 5 fansub groups that honestly stop subbing when something is licensed, one of which only stops if threatened to do so. Regardless, even when something is licensed and a group stops, another group will pop up to keep subbing it, as seen with Death Note. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
sumgai
Posts: 19 |
|
|||||||||
|
No matter what, it seems that things always turn into a fansub debate.
I wonder... Do people honestly believe that if fansubs were to suddenly vanish, DVD sales would boost? Obviously, it's not like it's right in any way to download fansubs, but it's not like thier existence really hurts the anime industry; People that don't buy DVDs because they're too expensive will just end up buying the infinitely cheaper bootlegs instead. As for the other idiots that claim not to buy DVDs for whatever "morale" anti-corporation or whatever-the-hell reasons, (This phantom evil/slacker/lazy fansub viewer that I've never actually met. You know, the one that everybody seems to refer to when they label the "fansub elitists") would they even exist as anime fans without fansubs...or hell...the internet? In the end, I don't think that fansubs really matter. They don't significantly hurt or help. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
GATSU
Posts: 15336 |
|
|||||||||
|
I alluded to this in a different thread, but I really don't see why Bandai Visual's prices are any worse than Animeigo's prices. Hell, more people are willing to buy into that Legend of the Galactic Heroes pre-order than plunk significantly less cash for Honneamise. And many of you are willing to scrounge up $600 for a PS3 which only has one game worth playing next year. Then there were the dumb-f*cks who were psychotic enough to pay $400 in import fees for a 30 minute ova spin-off of FF7! Now I'm not saying their costs aren't occasionally absurd, but they're not the worst shake-down artists in the entertainment biz, either.
So if you're going to bitch about BVUSA, at least be fair about it, since they are trying to bring out quality titles and keep anime going into the next-gen dvd format. For example, they even saved Honneamise from Crap Transfer Hell, but you just want to complain about the cost without taking account of the fact that it doesn't have a big audience, even among Gainax fans; and unless it has a schoolgirl or an effeminate guy on the cover, the casual fan just won't care. And if you haven't noticed, the market for anime is rough right now. BV has to absorb losses to turn a profit or break even, especially now that they've lost a distributor. And anyway, you're supposed to be fans who support a particular title for the sake of its success or survival. Backing down now and settling for some crap from Gonzo just means more crap from Gonzo, which means people will grow out of it sooner, and then all we'll get is monster-catching stuff. If you really can't afford it, then fine. But don't take away the opportunity from someone who can afford it by demonizing the company, and alienating them from a possible purchase. It just means one less potential fan, and one more death knell for the industry. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Ai no Kareshi
 Posts: 561 Location: South Africa |
|
|||||||||
|
Another exciting column. Good work.
I'd like to raise two points, both regarding the email about fansubs: Firstly, I think your definition of a "fan" is a little off, Mr Zac. You seem to be throwing together fans of a product and fans of an artist - one does not need to be both. One could hate an artist and still admire his work; whether you pay for it or not. If my sister bought a movie and I go to her house to watch it once a week, am I still not a "fan" because I don't see the need to buy my own copy? The second thing I'd like to mention is that, while I certainly won't argue that no fansubs means no anime industry or claim downloading fansubs to be legal, I'd like you to consider the following scenario. The Japanese companies may not be receiving a cent of my money for the anime I download, but this way I have more cash to spend on importing related merchandise (such as artbooks, drama CDs and figures). This importing makes up a significant part of my monthly budget, and if I had not downloaded the show, I surely would not have bothered to import (or "become a fan" by whatever definition). |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Hon'ya-chan
 Posts: 973 |
|
|||||||||
Bullshit. They can only push that dead horse before you run out of stuff to slap the DBZ logo on. In fact, I find it laughable they still try to push that proeprty that ended what, years ago? Plus with Viz airing Naruto and Bleach, it's only a matter of time before that property is truely dead.
Too bad FUNi insists on "supporting" dead properties and ADV can't seem to separate personal desires from reality. Viz is too busy trying to figure out what item they can slap on the Hidden Leaf Village symbol on. Condoms maybe? Anyway, they also need to go after YouTube and other related sites as well. As much as I wanna find OP's of anime, I don't wanna see those AMV hackjobs.
What the Anime Companies should do is do what the Book and Movie companies do with a twist: Have the stores sign paperwork that they will not sell bootlegged DVD's. Send random buyers into stores and buy the bootlegged product if their on the shelf. Company then can go back and either Fine a/or pull their products off the shelves. Minor Nitpick: Answerman's question needs to have link(s) to relevant articles to his query. While I won't answer the question, i'm sure some folks are gonna either completely miss the point, or bitch and moan that the question is BS. Last edited by Hon'ya-chan on Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group