Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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The reason she was in any position to do what she did was because she had come such a long way from the indecisive, self-depreciating, naive and aimless girl she starts out as. Just saying. Madoka making her wish was not her character improvement, it was the result of it. Saying that Madoka making a plot- and character-based decision like that somehow doesn't represent her character improvement is as absurd as saying Youko's (short) speech in episode 39 of Twelve Kingdoms somehow doesn't represent how far she has come in her own improvement.* *You may not specifically be saying that word-for-word, but that's the sentiment being communicated by a few people around here. |
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rheiders
 Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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Bleh, forgot to do this earlier, but arguments have convinced me:
Vote Change: Group C-14: Changing vote to Madoka. I still think they're both pretty weak contestants, but arguments have made me look back on what I remember of Madoka Magica, and I realize she does change somewhat. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Tallying earlier than usually because, well, mostly because I'm bored right now and also because we've had a lot of early voting this time. And because I really care strongly about C-12 and wanted to see how much work I had to do in to support a candidate who I did not expect to even be challenged this early.
[insert usually disclaimer about my math being possibly wrong] Group C-9 Youko Nakajima, 14 vs. Sesshomaru, 4 Group C-10 Rikuo Sakisaka, 6 vs. Shizuku Tsukishima, 12 Group C-11 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, 10 vs. Tomoya Okazaki, 8 Group C-12 Kimihiro Watanuki, 10 vs. Tsubasa Shiina, 8 Group C-13 Hikaru Shindou, 13 vs. Ami Kawashima, 5 Group C-14 Madoka Kaname, 12 vs. Watashi (unnamed protagonist), 6 Group C-15 Kenshin Himura, 13 vs. Kiki, 5 Group C-16 Seras Victoria, 4 vs. Shinichi Chiaki, 14 One interesting thing I found was that my assertation after rosebrook11's votes about being more worried about Watanuki than Chiaki because the latter was in a better lead turned out to be completely wrong. They in fact had identical stores at that time, though Chiaki has since pulled away nicely so now I'm really not too concerned about him going down. I'm also relieved to see that the anti-Madoka vote really hasn't been as bad as I thought it might be, with her sitting in a fairly comfortable lead right now. Last interesting thing for me was that initially, the character winning by the most was Shizuka, not Youko. Should be interesting to see them face off against each other next round (assuming there are no major votes for their competition to knock them out here). The lead keeps switching with C-11 and C-12 so those are definitely the ones to watch. Currently, my two nominees are both leading which makes me happy but still uneasy, particularly again about Watanuki because I still considering him top tier. As for Watanuki, I have been trying to find video clips showing his development and failing  The best I can do is to direct people to episode 12 of xxxHolic Kei, which can be found without too much issue but I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be linking to here. This episode marks the end of the "Himawari" arc and the first half of the episode really shows how much Watanuki has matured, especially where Himawari is concerned. For context, there isn't too much to know, just that spoiler[Watanuki has just been in a serious, life-threatening accident and it looks like Himawari's influence is somehow to blame].
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Still, her characterization and improvement reek of a generic magical girl who grows to her role, but unlike other generic magical girls Madoka has the luck of being in a series with a better plot. If she were an interesting dynamic magical girl like Tutu who is the one who moves the story forward and makes the show, I would vote for her, but she is just a passive girl who does nothing for most part of the show, at least Watashi is interesting to watch. In PMMM the supporting characters make the show, while Madoka is just an observer and a boring one too. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Group C-9
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Sesshomaru, Inuyasha franchise Voting for: Youko Sesshomaru was a tough choice to make last week, and this weak he's against a character who goes from a pathetic weakling to a powerful leader over the course of her series. Easy choice. Group C-10 Rikuo Sakisaka, Time of Eve vs. Shizuku Tsukishima, Whisper of the Hear Voting for: Shizuku I mentioned last round I thought Rikuo's shift was pretty quick and happened early on. Shizuku's write-up is good enough for me to vote for her instead. Group C-11 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, Paradise Kiss vs. Tomoya Okazaki, Clannad Voting for: Tomoya While the plot device at the end might hurt Tomoya a little (more because it seemed as though he was about to regress again without it saving him than the convenience of it), it's not enough to stop him here. He rebounds from significant tragedies multiple times over the franchise, and while the low he hits in After Story is worse than he was at the starting point, he recovers to a higher level than he had reached before. Yukari can't quite match that. Group C-12 Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise vs. Tsubasa Shiina, Figure 17 Voting for: Tsubasa While Watanuki does become vastly less insufferable under Yuuko's tutelage, I still found him plenty irritating at times even towards the end of the second season. Group C-13 Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Voting for: Ami Kawashima I place more values in overcoming flaws than an average person bettering himself. Group C-14 Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magika vs. Watashi (unnamed protagonist), The Tatami Galaxy Voting for: Madoka I already said my piece here. I can point out the steps throughout the series demonstrating the gradual growth in Madoka, but it doesn't look like I quite need to yet this round. Some people commented that she isn't dynamic/doesn't take action. Reconsider episode 6, where her decision to prevent Kyoko and Sayaka from having it out again reveals a major piece of information, or when she teams up with Kyoko to rescue Sayaka in episode 9. These seem to have been disregarded because they weren't exactly successful in the way they were intended, but they weren't passive and are examples of things she wouldn't have done at the start of the series. Group C-15 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal vs. Kiki, Kiki’s Delivery Service Voting for: Kenshin Group C-16 Seras Victoria, Hellsing Ultimate vs. Shinichi Chiaki, Nodame Cantibile Voting for: Shinichi |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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Group C-9
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Sesshomaru, Inuyasha franchise Voting for Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms. Voted for Sesshomaru last round and seen a big chunk of Inuyasha and all of 12k. Some anime and manga want to make it a point of showing a character improving, but its not always handled smoothly or convincingly. Execution matters to me, its not enough for a character to just have a heel face turn or quick change. The character development in 12K doesn't always work for me, but having said that I believe that overall Youko improves enough in multiple ways to overcome Sesshomaru. Group C-10 Rikuo Sakisaka, Time of Eve vs. Shizuku Tsukishima, Whisper of the Hear Voting for Shizuku Tsukishima, Whisper of the Heart. I've seen Time of Eve, own it and really like it quite a bit. However, and I think I said this last round too, I don't think the characters grew that significantly. Group C-11 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, Paradise Kiss vs. Tomoya Okazaki, Clannad Voting for Tomoya Okazaki, Clannad. Yukari grows and improves without a doubt from someone with little ambition and drive to someone invested in her future. I own Paradise Kiss and I think its a wonderful slice of life show. I would probably pick her over other contestants in group C. However, I'm going with Tomoya though because it seems that he has more ups and downs than Yukari over a longer period of time. Group C-12 Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise vs. Tsubasa Shiina, Figure 17 Voting for Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise. Group C-13 Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Voting for Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go. Group C-14 Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magika vs. Watashi (unnamed protagonist), The Tatami Galaxy Voting for Watashi (unnamed protagonist), The Tatami Galaxy. I don't know but I feel like Madoka is being both underestimated and overestimated. I did not see her being as pathetic in the beginning as other people, neither did I see her grow as much as others say. I thought she was a little naive sure, but that I think went away relatively quickly when she saw spoiler[Mami get her head bitten off]. I thought that Madoka saw some pretty bad stuff and was constantly being pulled in one direction and the other, so her hesitancy and fears made sense to me. Plus she's just a kid. They all are and that's why they are easy prey for this Faustian bargain. I think she had to see everything that she did in order to grasp the system she was working with so that she might make a decision. I like the show, but I'm not so sure her improvement was that significant. Group C-15 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal vs. Kiki, Kiki’s Delivery Service Voting for Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal. Group C-16 Seras Victoria, Hellsing Ultimate vs. Shinichi Chiaki, Nodame Cantibile Voting for Shinichi Chiaki, Nodame Cantibile. This is a bit of a tough one for me as I have a soft spot for Seras and nominated her. I think that Seras overcomes her fears, gains confidence, gains power and doesn't become the monster that others in the series become. The only problem I have is that it is a show more concerned with style over substance and because of that I believe it short changes Seras potential development somewhat. A little more character development and I think Seras would have been a very formidable contestant. I'm hesitant and I'm willing to change my vote, but I'll give it to Chiaki right now because my impression from the discussion and write up is that he has more of a change in his character and thinking whereas Seras for the most part remains the "good girl" she always was. |
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WhiteHairGirls
 Posts: 4713 Location: New York City |
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Hm not that I think it would affect the votes, but wasn't it decided that this is Tomoya from the FIRST season of Clannad? If you read his description it has no mention of the 2nd season. But I see a lot of people mentioning After Story's cheap ending. So if the cheap ending is the reason you voted against him, go change your vote if necessary.
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Veers
Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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I'd vote for Tutu over Madoka in a heartbeat, but she's not up against Tutu in this round and who she or her opponent are not should have no bearing on the decision. Yes, Watashi is an interesting character to watch, I agree, even more so than Madoka most of the time, but this isn't the most interesting character to watch tournament. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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I still think that limitations like those are kind of dumb. I mean, what if I said "I'm only considering Madoka from episodes 1 to 10 and she doesn't improve at all!" You'd think I was an idiot. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18247 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Vaisaga, that's an exaggerated example and you know it. This isn't an issue of saying that only certain episodes of a particular series can be considered; this is about whether an entire additional series (even if it is a sequel series) should be considered.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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If it's a sequel series with the same character and everything, then yes, it should be considered. Otherwise you're just purposefully ignoring something just because it might hurt your argument.
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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So, we've got about 15 minutes left to vote (assuming daylight savings isn't messing things up). And currently, assuming my count is right (and Key hasn't said it wasn't, so I feel safe in this assumption), that means that Group C-11 is currently tied at 10-10, while Watanuki is still winning C-12 by 2 votes. However, we have frequently had people sneak in at the end, so that could change.
The other matches though I would say are pretty much set. On the issue of ignoring series, I'll say it's definitely a case by case basis thing. I think generally if it's a series plus movies/OVAs, then it is easier to discount something which was not part of the original story and was often made for the sole purpose of milking more money out of the franchise. Multiple seasons are a little trickier. I haven't seen Clannad so I really can't comment on it, but the only time I can think of really wanted to separate would be with something like Gunslinger Girl, where the two seasons were made by completely different studios, with a fair amount of time between airings. But at the same time, since it's a manga adaptation, the story is still fairly consistent ... And, of course, there's the two FMA series but no one has ever had an issue considering them two separate beasts. It's definitely tricky. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group C-9
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Sesshomaru, Inuyasha franchise My vote goes to: Youko Nakajima. Group C-10 Rikuo Sakisaka, Time of Eve vs. Shizuku Tsukishima, Whisper of the Hear My vote goes to: Shizuku Tsukishima. Group C-11 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, Paradise Kiss vs. Tomoya Okazaki, Clannad My vote goes to: Tomoya Okazaki. Group C-12 Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise vs. Tsubasa Shiina, Figure 17 My vote goes to: Kimihiro Watanuki. Group C-13 Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! I still no idea how to play Go considering its learning curve. From a reluctant player to showing genuine interest in Go, Hikaru has certainly come a long way. His drive and motivation to beat without Sai's help is his way of seeing his growth as a player. My vote goes to: Hikaru Shindou. Group C-14 Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magika vs. Watashi (unnamed protagonist), The Tatami Galaxy My vote goes to: Madoka Kaname. Group C-15 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal vs. Kiki, Kiki’s Delivery Service Kiki transitions from childhood to adulthood well in the movie. Growing up is about learning from experiences and mistakes. She also discovers who she is personality- and character-wise along the way. My vote goes to: Kiki. Group C-16 Seras Victoria, Hellsing Ultimate vs. Shinichi Chiaki, Nodame Cantibile My vote goes to: Shinichi Chiaki. |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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Awesome, I'm getting good at this last minute thing. Can't spend long on this though because I need to get to sleep
Group C-9 Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms She's a definite powerhouse that I'm hoping makes it into the final rounds. She's got my support 100%. Group C-10 Shizuku Tsukishima, Whisper of the Heart Shizuku's struggles and growth throughout the movie hit me hard the first time I saw it, because I was going through a very similar situation. While I love both shows, Rikuo didn't make as lasting of an impact. Group C-11 Yukari “Caroline” Hayasaka, Paradise Kiss The arguments for her have me pretty strongly in her court. Group C-12 Tsubasa Shiina, Figure 17 I recently saw Figure 17, and Tsubasa's development was pretty telling. The arguments for Watanuki have been pretty good, but not enough to sway me. Group C-13 Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go Arguments on here convinced me. Group C-14 Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magika I agree that both are weak contenders, and I don't see either one lasting long, but Madoka's development does feel more like she came to a decision on her own terms after carefully gathering and analyzing all of the details and looking within herself for what would make her most satisfied. Watashi, on the other hand, came to a sudden epiphany. Group C-15 Kiki, Kiki’s Delivery Service I have a hard time voting against the characters whose growth I relate to more. I do admit that Kenshin's growth is more drastic, but Kiki's is more relatable. If the challenge between the two was closer together, I would probably not be so selfish with my vote. Group C-16 Shinichi Chiaki, Nodame Cantibile Arguments have convinced me. Also, similar reasoning as above (weak human turned vampire badass vs. jerk becoming more considerate while realizing his dream?) |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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In Clannad's case it and After Story are meant to be consumed as one singular narrative. Separating the two is like trying to isolate Gundam 00 season 1 from season 2.
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