×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
Hey, Answerman! [2006-07-28]


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Steroid



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 329
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am Reply with quote
Answerman wrote:
In my sincere, honest opinion, there's really not a big difference between a so-called "lolicon"guys and straight-up pedophiles. In defense of the lolicon guys, yeah, there's no ACTUAL children being exploited but I find it hard to believe they're sincerely only attracted to drawings and would never lust after a real 8-year old. It's such a short step from getting off to a drawing of a child being raped versus a photo of a child being raped. Either way it completely sickens and disgusts me, but these guys prefer to split hairs.

Then do you find it hard to believe that people attracted to drawings of rape won't lust to become rapists themselves? That people attracted to pictured of murder don't want to murder people? There's a wide gulf between preference and action, and no one has the right to pass factual judgement on preference. It's a short step from a drawing to a photo. . . except for the child involved. Does the notion that a loliphile might be a moral person who knows the difference between real life and fantasy not occur to you? Within those split hairs lies the difference between a private action and a crime--something to be careful about, not prejudge.

Quote:
What's worse in my opinion - and why I think anime fans should be a little worried about the recent upswing in lolicon fans - is the massive, extremely scary image problem that lolicon could potentially bring about. . . . How would you like it if big media got a hold of this trend and decided to do a story on how anime fandom is a haven for pedophiles?

It's the media's responsibility to view an event or a trend accurately, not the actors' responsibility to present it in a palatable way. If they choose to represent all anime by a subset, it is their error, not that of the anime fans.

Quote:
Personally, while I'd like to see lolicon stuff disappear completely - not banned, but simply not published, endorsed or purchased - that isn't likely to happen so for the time being I'd much rather it stay as far underground as possible. This recent trend of some fans - and I believe they are simply a very loud, very scary but very small minority - being so open about it on very public and visible forums sincerely worries me.

But you are not a member of the lolicon fandom, so it's not for you to say how they should conduct themselves. What benefit does going underground accrue to them? Why should they? If you're not going to accomodate them, why should they accomodate you?

Quote:
[T]his description makes my skin crawl and I want to go take a shower. And I think that's a pretty rational and reasonable response to have.

I don't see it. Please explain the rationalization behind this reaction.

I think this issue is symptomatic of my major, first-principles disagreement with the Answerman column in general. The author has a fixed idea that what is "right"; defined by a nebulous and shifting concept combining the status quo, populism, and a basic morality; is superior to what people want. People like drawing lolicon. People like viewing lolicon. A closed circuit. In this circuit, human happiness in increased. That ought to be celebrated, not denounced.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
hentai4me



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 1313
Location: England. Robin is so Cute!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:13 am Reply with quote
I think, with lolicon, there are two main types. One is acceptable while the other is not. The unacceptable one is placing obviously underage (what is the age of consent in Japan by the way? It's 16 over here...at least it was last time I checked) people, that means if the person is older but still looks to be obviously underage, in exploitative sexual situations. For example a hentai using obviously underaged girls (though most hentai tend to go the otherway and have massively endowed characters who bear no resemblance to an underage girl). Whereas acceptable (obviously this is just what I consider, but I imagine the majority of loli viewers; I wont say fans as that implies they enjoy a show BECAUSE of the loli not as well as; will agree) is using underage characters (or those who are meant to appear as such) in light or even moderate sexual situations and innuendo. As an example 'Today in Class 5-2' the very first short has obvious innuendo but there is nothing overly exploitative about it, the same with 'collarbones'. While, from the same show, the short in which the girl worries about gaining 3kg in a week could have been done better, it was borderline too much but was acceptable. Those of you who have seen it will understand what I mean.

Now I'm not supporting Lolicon all the way, if the underage characters are being loli for the sake of fun, as in Class 5-2, rather than for the sake of arousal, as in hentai, then it's acceptable. But if used solely for the reasons of sexual desire then I don't see it as acceptable. I think that most people will agree with me, if the loli is used in fun rather than sex then it's fine. And Class 5-2 is obviously meant to be a comedy and the majority of the shorts don't even come close to the line; though I'll admit some do.

Quote:
My main problem with Lolicon and Moe is that well, as it gains popularity, there'll be less money for titles I like, which will lead to less titles being made that I like, and then it actually affecting properties that I like.


True it may be Steve, but I don't see that as any reason to act out against well used lolicon. For example I hate Shounen fighting series like Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Dragonballz, Inuyasha, etc and yes as they are popular less titles I like will be created as companies will go for the surefire hit rather than a less sure one. But that doesn't mean that I can resent people who find those series enjoyable. Just because something else is popular or gaining popularity doens't mean that you can resent it. Not that you were being particularly resentful, I was just using your point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mike.motaku



Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 160
Location: Indiana
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:42 am Reply with quote
Steroid wrote:

People like drawing lolicon. People like viewing lolicon. A closed circuit. In this circuit, human happiness in increased. That ought to be celebrated, not denounced.



So "human happiness" is your all-purpose moral guideline? Replace "lolicon" with "puppies being raped with baseball bats" in your statement. Are you celebrating yet? Some people get off on all sorts of things that others find repulsive. Just because you like doing it doesn't mean I have to recognize and applaud the beauty of your actions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kiyoko



Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Posts: 131
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:44 am Reply with quote
About Lolicon-

I agree with Zac whole-heartedly that this could be a potential problem for anime. Actual Lolicon also seriously creeps me out and makes me sick to my stomach..

However..

What about the people out there like me? I'm a 24 year old female yaoi fan. Two of my favorite bishounen happen to be Edward Elric from FMA and Duo Maxwell from Gundam Wing, and I own a lot of yaoi doujinshi about them. For most of the series, they're about 15-16 years old. Though they're not like.. 5 year olds, by US law they are still minors. Would that make me a Lolicon-ish type of pervert?

It's something I've always wondered about, given the massive popularity of some of these yaoi and hentai pairings from popular non-yaoi/hentai/loli shows, which could end up doing just as much damage. (Picture a young kid doing a Google search for innocent Pokemon pictures and coming across AshxGary yaoi, and a parent sees... )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
sabriyahm



Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 291
Location: Georgia
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:45 am Reply with quote
Steroid wrote:


It's the media's responsibility to view an event or a trend accurately, not the actors' responsibility to present it in a palatable way. If they choose to represent all anime by a subset, it is their error, not that of the anime fans.

The media sure they have a responsibility to get it right. But an article title "Child Porn Anime on the Rise" would be right technically and not helpful to any anime fans reputations. Someone could do a fair and balanced article about the trend and I am telling you it would still freek the hell out of people. I am an anime fan and IT FREEKS THE HELL OUT OF ME. Until this column I have heard people talking about moe but I thought it was excessive fan service. The idea that this is some sort of rising trend of kiddy porn is very unpleasant to me. Some of us have jobs and lives (I am a prosecutor) where we do not care to be tarnished with a kiddie porn brush. I dread the day when an article like that comes out.
Steroid wrote:

I think this issue is symptomatic of my major, first-principles disagreement with the Answerman column in general. The author has a fixed idea that what is "right"; defined by a nebulous and shifting concept combining the status quo, populism, and a basic morality; is superior to what people want. People like drawing lolicon. People like viewing lolicon. A closed circuit. In this circuit, human happiness in increased. That ought to be celebrated, not denounced.


You'd have made more sense if you had just said you always disagree with him. Basic morality IS superior to what people want! EVerything people want is not to be celebrated. Please remember even if you don't think there is a connection there are child pornagraphers out there. Should their wants be celebrated to? You have to draw lines sometimes. I don't think it's crazy to draw the line at animated child porn.


Last edited by sabriyahm on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
minakichan





PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:46 am Reply with quote
Yay for a lolicon-slam. I wish we could get more people to read this column, or at least that response. I mean, free expression and individual rights are one thing, but that also gives the rest of us a bad label.

As for the rant... uh, swearing? I think Mr. X has been watching too many bad fansubs. The swearing in shows like Naruto is about the English equivalent of saying "Darn it, you suck." (This reminds me of an old argument that Pokemon is an adult show because characters say what might literally be $#!t, but without such harsh connotation.)
Back to top
chrisb
Subscriber



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 620
Location: USA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:48 am Reply with quote
I had a hard time trying to put my thoughts into words but thanks for doing that fo me Hentai4me. I do agree there's the acceptable kind and then there are the ones that are full out hentai. Light and moderate situations is ok as long as it doesn't cross the line. I tend to stay away from all forms of loli as it's not something I care for at all but as long as it's not full out hardcore and they aren't very young I don't see too much of a problem with others watching it. Also if someone wacks off to loli that's their thing as long as they don't tell me then I don't care.

I will ask what about the hentai that feature girls that are 14, 15 or 16, aren't they still minors in U.S law anyway? I don't really see them being called perverted. I'm not saying they are, there is a difference between loli and teenagers and I read yaoi doujinshi and yuri doujinshi that show characters that are around 15 and 16 but I'm just curious as to why lolifans are seen as sick but fans of the bishoujo/bishounen games with 14 and 15 year olds aren't really attacked as much.

As for that law about visual cartoon pornagraphy doesn't it have to do more with only the realistic looking ones? I don't think that the shota and loli that look super deformed like they usually do really fall under that law. I think there was a link to it before here on ANN that explained it. Something from the supreme court?...


Last edited by chrisb on Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Treeloot



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:12 am Reply with quote
Wolverine Princess wrote:
I like shows like Bottle Fairy, Strawberry Marshmallows, and Pani Poni Dash not because I'm "turned on" by them, but because they're just so cute. I like moe for the big heads, the giant eyes, and adorably innocent characters; not the "pleasures" of watching five-year-olds sit with their legs open on the floor for a peek at their panties. The feeling I get from shows like Bottle Fairy is identical to watching fluffy white puppies chew on bunny slippers.

Quote:
I don't really draw the line at something like Negima. Shows like that and Bottle Fairy and Ichigo Marshmallow encourage the whole lolicon thing and I wish they'd go away already and stop trying to bring the whole "wow man little kids are totally sexy!" concept into the acceptable mainstream.

What's your beef with Bottle Fairy and Strawberry Marshmellows? Sure, there's a single episode of Bottle Fairy that has the girls modeling swimsuits, but both of those shows (especially Strawberry Marshmallows) are quite tame, and although the target audience for both of them is adult men they're as clean and family-friendly as anime gets.

Assuming you're actually right about Bottle Fairy being aimed at Adults...

When a show like Bottle Fairy is aimed at adult men, there's something seriously wrong. What kind of man sits around and watches a show where cutesy little fairies discover bits and pieces of Japanese culture? When a teenage male or grown man (unless he's with his kids) sits around watching Bottle Fairy , it's not cute it's just creepy.

Kiyoko wrote:

What about the people out there like me? I'm a 24 year old female yaoi fan. Two of my favorite bishounen happen to be Edward Elric from FMA and Duo Maxwell from Gundam Wing, and I own a lot of yaoi doujinshi about them. For most of the series, they're about 15-16 years old. Though they're not like.. 5 year olds, by US law they are still minors. Would that make me a Lolicon-ish type of pervert?


I find it rather creepy. I also find it downright pathetic. You're 24 and you're fantasizing about relationships between fictional 15 year old boys.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kizoku



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 47
Location: Ypsilanti, MI
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:33 am Reply with quote
MTierce wrote:
For one thing, anime is a highly stylized art form. No one would confuse an anime character with a real person. Things that we find attractive for an anime character, if applied to a real person, might garner a very different reaction.

Oh come on... If it didn't make the people watching it think of the real thing what are they watching it for? Just so they can tell themselves they're not real perverts? The way I see it, they are.

Changing subjects a little, how do we make them go hide so they don't poison the public perception of anime? How about pointing out that the cops are almost certainly watching them online? And the internet isn't nearly as anonymous as they think it is? Or that really large ex-military anime fans (like me) with little girls (like me) might be standing behind them at the local con? True, trying to drive their heads through the wall would be wrong, and counter productive, but....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hentai4me



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 1313
Location: England. Robin is so Cute!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:36 am Reply with quote
sabriyahm wrote:
Until this column I have heard people talking about moe but I thought it was excessive fan service. The idea that this is some sort of rising trend of kiddy porn is very unpleasant to me. Some of us have jobs and lives (I am a prosecutor) where we do not care to be tarnished with a kiddie porn brush. I dread the day when an article like that comes out.


Can I just ask; as I've heard it from several different people; where did this idea that moe is child porn come from?

As far as I understood it Moe was a feeling of affection for a character, in the sense that you want to help them, look after them and protect them from harm, much like you might want to help protect a cute animal or help a lost child. Not because you see any gain from doing so but because you feel a sort of parental love for them. And the association with cute young girls is that 1) most people are more incluned to like cute things 2) younger things are usually suter than older things and are usually in need more often 3) girls are cuter than guys.

So I have been led to believe that if you see something and want to give it a hug or something (like a cute kitten, or a lost child) then that's moe. Not a young child in sexual situations...that's Loli.

Perhaps I've been misled, I, for example, see Chise (Saikano) or Nana (Elfen Lied) as very moe because they both make me want to go over and give them a hug and make everything alright for them. Not because I want to have sex with them...

Quote:
I find it rather creepy. I also find it downright pathetic. You're 24 and you're fantasizing about relationships between fictional 15 year old boys.


(I know the first quote is missing but still...)

I fantasize about all sorts of things, seeing as it's only a fantasy and not real, further no one can see my fantasies does it matter what they consist of? I sit in a meeting and think about all the grusome ways I'd like to kill some of my co-managers, I'd never do it but I think about it. I fantasize about what it would be like to be the object of attention in a harem anime it's never going to happen but that doesn't matter. I dream about what I would do if I were to create a wonder cure for AIDS, it's never going to happen but so what?

A fantasy is usually just you trying to amuse yourself with things you find interesting, attractive, affectionate, etc

Let's look in more detail. She is kept entertained (and perhaps more... Embarassed ) by fictional stories about fictional characters having fictional sex. If she hadn't posted it here you would 1) not know and 2) not be affected. So what is the harm in her doing so? I verfy much doubt that she has only just the second she posted that begun enjoying such material and so for an unknown period of time before this she has been enjoying it to no detriment to anyone I know of.

I don't see it as pathetic in any way, she is enjoying herself without affecting others in a negative way whereas many other things that people enjoy can and do have an obvious negative affect on others. For example a Sadist with someone who is not a masochist, I don't see that ending well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 165
Location: IL, USA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:53 am Reply with quote
Excellent points by MTierce, Steroid, hentai4me, and Wolverine Princess, I think you all probably have the most valid and appropriate posts for the subject, so therefore I salute you. And thanks to GATSU for the laugh with the Teletubies article.

Steroid probably has the most reasonable and correct view on the subject out of anyone involved on this discussion. I hate to admit it, but I agree with him that Zac is being bias on the subject of lolicon. We have to understand that people will like what they want and we have to live with it, we live in a free society.

Especially on this subject, look, the truth is like MTierce said things like this should be viewed more as an outlet, they don't harm anyone unless they are actively involved in it themselves. And as MTierce said:

Quote:
No one would confuse an anime character with a real person.


I don't care what you say about what they think about the content they view, it's different plain and simple. The content only involves them, and images that are clearly not people. Whether they make the jump to acting it out on people, that is based on their own morals and ethics, that's their problem. This is almost identical to the same argument about video games.

Complain to the people that don't put things in context for kids and those who can be influenced, NOT to subject material that shouldn't be viewed unless you already have established morals and ethics.

And now to quote sabriyahm who was trying to argue against Steroid:

Quote:
The media sure they have a responsibility to get it right. But an article title "Child Porn Anime on the Rise" would be right technically and not helpful to any anime fans reputations.


As Steroid said, "It's the media's responsibility to view an event or a trend accurately, not the actors' responsibility to present it in a palatable way. If they choose to represent all anime by a subset, it is their error, not that of the anime fans." You were even responding to it but I think it's your best answer. Yes, granted we anime fans don't want that kind of attention but it's not our responsibility to put it into context, unless you write articles on the stuff... say like Zac. But hopefully, again I hate to say, I hope no one uses as much bias as Zac even though it's expected.

And again to quote sabriyahm who was trying to argue against Steroid:

Quote:
Basic morality IS superior to what people want!


It is this kind of opinion that leads to forced opinions on people. You're basically saying with this statement that people who think they are "morally superior" can tell people what they want or rather force them to do what the said "morally superior" person wants. And you're a prosecutor? Well, you did also say lolicon more or less "FREEKS THE HELL OUT OF ME". The issue he was talking about was one of celebrating freedom, not the content involved (lolicon), I think you were a little confused on that.

How do you think we have courts in the first place? We all agree to all allow and make people to live by shared standards. Granted, I'm sure most people would agree some things are wrong but when it comes down to it, people should be allowed to have their freedom especially when it doesn't hurt others and is consented, in essence that really is the real "American" system of justice at least, or as far as I know. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

And to back Wolverine Princess and hentai4me, people, don't confuse moe and lolicon, or for that matter some sexual content for the sake of comedy in the first place. Take things for what they are.

People do what they want, and generally, in this case especially, it isn't really that bad. If you think so tough, live with it, it's not like it's forced on you.


Last edited by Steve007101 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:04 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
maichips



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:00 am Reply with quote
I for one think that this Lolicon issue is an invert of the "13-year-olds liking hard core Yaoi" thing. Loli: Older men watching younger girls in sexual situations. Yaoi: Younger girls watching older men having sex together. And both of these subjects are just hiding on the shadow's edge, waiting to be picked up by the American government and banned for good.

But while we call the men who like Loli perverts and pedophiles, the young, 13-year-old Yaoi porn fans are just called "Yaoi fan girls." So which is worse: perverts liking Loli, or young girls perverting themselves? Both are guilty pleasures, but which one is guiltier?

((To all Yaoi fans: I'm not going against Yaoi itself, I'm just against those too young watching the hard core stuff.))
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ginzugirl



Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 30
Location: Detroit, Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:04 am Reply with quote
GAH! This week's ANSWERMAN is scary, isn it? Anyone out there want to run with yet another "brilliant" manga/anime story idea? I got one for you! THE OTAKU POLICE!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger My Anime My Manga
Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 165
Location: IL, USA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:11 am Reply with quote
You're right, they're both guilty pleasures, but in reality they are really no guiltier than the other then. Their motivation is essentially the same, but because our system of restriction is on age to buy material, I'm sure Yaoi fan girls are going to be looked down upon. And in return lolicon fan boys are looked down upon because they think about underaged kids in the same way.

The ironic thing is this whole arguement stems from age, when people have to understand that it's a matter of desire that really isn't our fault. Your post ginzugirl, really made me think about pointing it out.

Think about it, what's more appealing generally to people, a younger, shorter girl for instance, say cuter and more innocent? And how about an older, taller, more hardcore kind of guy? From moe, lolicon, to Yaoi, I'd be willing to say we just have preferences for the sexes whether seemingly sexual or not, it's just a matter of desire that really is understandable, so in my opinion you really can't bash it. If people want to bash anything, it should at least be even less understandable to people.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18247
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:21 am Reply with quote
chrisb wrote:
I will ask what about the hentai that feature girls that are 14, 15 or 16, aren't they still minors in U.S law anyway? I don't really see them being called perverted. I'm not saying they are, there is a difference between loli and teenagers and I read yaoi doujinshi and yuri doujinshi that show characters that are around 15 and 16 but I'm just curious as to why lolifans are seen as sick but fans of the bishoujo/bishounen games with 14 and 15 year olds aren't really attacked as much.


The trick that hentai and games use to get around that is by including a disclaimer that "all characters portrayed in this product are 18 [sometimes 19] years of age or older." I've seen this done in at least three or four cases where characters involved in sexual situations were, based on story context and visual appearance, very clearly supposed to be younger than 18, so I have to wonder how well those disclaimers would stand up to a legal challenge. (Could our poster who said he's a prosecutor comment on this?)

On a separate issue, let's keep in mind that lolicon is sexualizing underage girls (or women who look underaged). Underaged nudity within a proper context (such as in a bath scene) is apparently acceptable in Japanese culture, as are underaged panty shots, as long as there's no clear sexual implication to the scene; hell, even decided family series like Ghost Stories have been known to show panty shots of elementary school-aged girls for laughs. Is that series lolicon because of that? No, although I suppose some pervert could read something into it that wasn't intended. Is a series like Le Portrait de Petite Cossette or Moon Phase (at least based on the first two episodes) lolicon? Absolutely.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 4 of 36

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group