Forum - View topicFullmetal ANNCast: Brotherhood
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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I have a whole list of series that I think need another adaptation due to the dreaded "caught up the manga, let's just wrap it up here" sort of thing. Or perhaps just a continuation is fine in some cases too.
Twin Spica-got like 6 vols in, missed so much good stuff! Please Save My Earth-was originally slated for 12 eps but somehow got 6, but does cover a good 7.5 volumes really well and it's still a good story Legend of Basara-the manga is 25 volumes long (and like two and a half volumes of side stories), but there's no way much was adapted, in large part because those volumes are dense! Great Teacher Onizuka-it ends after a major arc, but plenty was left out. A new student shows up after that arc and now that we have 14 Days in Shonan, we even know what happens during that blank of time where Onizuka disappears. I did enjoy the silly filler within the anime, but there was so much more to do! More crazy students to suddenly show up! And more Crestas need to be destroyed! As for the actual ANNCast topic, I vastly preferred FMA 2003 to the manga (I never actually saw Brotherhood, I read the manga, I didn't see the point in seeing Brotherhood except for the animation, but I had other anime to watch anyway). While Viz's inconsistent translation choices on some things (Ishbal? Or is it Ishvarl? among others) didn't help readability, I preferred the themes in 2003 more. I felt like the manga was too black and white (pun fully intended) with its morality choices and I felt like it didn't take as many risks as 2003 did (with things like spoiler[Mustang killing Winry's parents]. I also liked how it seemed to keep focus on Ed and Al and getting their bodies back more. And I really really disliked the ending to the manga, it just del tike way too much deus ex machina for me. I mean spoiler[how long did Ed know he just had to give up alchemy to revive his brother's body? Why couldn't that have been done ages ago?]. For me, 2003 was a series with lots of questions not easily answered, but not forced down my throat either while the manga was just another typical action shonen much of the time. I definitely don't need tons of action in my anime or manga, I'd prefer something more cerebral (not to say that I won't throw in Redline once in a while), so the 2003 series is easily my pick, the manga doesn't even come close for me. |
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Looneygamemaster
 Posts: 192 |
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I adore Fullmetal Alchemist; I consider both the manga and the 2003 show to be undisputed masterpieces, warts and all. I used to prefer Brotherhood, but as I re-watched both shows last year--yeah, not anymore.
It's not that it's a bad show; it'd take a lot worse than what Brotherhood did to completely tarnish such good source material. But it's sooooooo uninspired, and in a way, that's almost worse. Outside of the action scenes, no one involved with the show seemed to think about how they should adapt the comic. It's the kind of creative laziness you see all the time in anime adaptations: "no need to think about how this'll all flow in motion, just make the pictures move, and they'll eat it up." I'll also mention the English dub, since this was the first time I heard it in full. It's...okay. Just okay. Perfectly fine, workmanlike scripts and performances. And yet, it kind of depressed me, because I was reminded of the original show's dub, a dub I consider one of Funimation's all-time best, right up there with the likes of Beck, Baccano, RomeoxJuliet, Black Butler, etc. Not because it's technically as good as any of those dubs, but because I could feel everyone involved--script-writers, directors, voice actors, the whole lot--giving 110%. There's a giddy enthusiasm in that dub that gives the feeling of "this is fantastic material and it's our chance to prove that we can do it justice." The feeling I get from Brotherhood's dub is "Meh, business as usual." Kind of sums up my view on the shows, I guess. |
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Divineking
 Posts: 1293 |
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Nice discussion.
I have a lot of love for both versions of the anime, but I also lean a bit more towards Brotherhood. I appreciate that FMA 03' put a lot more work into character writing and I liked what they did with the story for that one, but for me it's all kinda hindered by Conquer of Shamballa's existance. In the grand scheme of things it can be easily skipped but it is apparently considered canon to that version and it irks me since Nazi villains aside, the ending kind of negated the impact of the ending and spoiler[Ed's sacrifice by sending Al over to join him. Not to mention there's also some thing in the bonus materials about Winry somehow joining them on that side too  ]
In comparison while Brotherhood doesn't have the same level of depth I really like it sense of scale when it comes to the story. You can really tell how much Arakawa planned out that storyline and it's gone on record that she actually wrote the ending before everything else, which really shows since almost nothing is wasted in terms of character and story. I know Zac and Hope went on about how it's alot more of a straightforward action-adventure than the 03' version which is true, but what makes it work in that respect is that in comparison to most shonen where the story is mostly being made up as it goes along because it's designed to run as long as possible, FMA is a much more complete narrative and it's something I wish happened more often with serialized stories. I also felt it had just the right amount of depth to it that even though it was a bit more morally straightforward than the 03' version, there was enough meat to chew on. Though truth be told while I prefer Brotherhood, I can't really bring myself to definitively pick one over the other. Both are incredibly strong shows, even if for different reasons and although people will probably still be debating which is better years from now, I think the fact that people can argue about it so passionately speaks volumes about both shows. We got two really great shows out of a single franchise and it's rare that happens so if nothing else, I'm extremely grateful for that. As far as remakes of other stuff goes, I'd really like to see a remake of Rurouni Kenshin. That's another good example of how different the tones between two different versions of the same story can be since the anime was generally a lot more lighthearted than the manga in it's earlier episodes, and changed some of the story arcs around quite a bit. It didn't really find it's edge until the OVAs but by that point it was really clear Fukuhashi didn't really understand Kenshin since while Trust and Betrayal had the right tone for Kenshin's origin story, Reflections was an angsty mess that completely negated the theme of the manga's ending, and the author flat out refused to acknowledge it as canon. Long story short I'd really like to see a much more straightforward retake on the manga story in anime form, though it seems Shueisha and Aniplex are hellbent on making that not happen since we keep getting OVAs or side stories pretty much no one wanted or asked for instead. |
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Parsifal24
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I never saw the 03 FMA and only caught the first episode of FMA Brotherhood, I did read all of the Manga and from the discussion sounds like I might enjoy the 03 series more.
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Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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Yeah, Furuhashi is quite a baffling case himself, and his projects are all over the map in terms of quality. From exceptional stories like Hunter X Hunter 1999 to down-right messes like Le Chevalier D'eon, and it's epitomized by his handle on all of Kenshin's animated projects as well with Trust and Betrayal being one of the all time greats and Reflection and New Kyoto Arc being a slap in the face. I too also wish for a full Kenshin remake at some point in time with really sharp production values and capturing the manga in its entirety while tuning a few of the missteps. I mean, Jinchu may have a few negligible villains just kind of filling space and a weird scenario with Enishi, Kaoru and such, but the overarching spiritual odyssey of Kenshin's absolution comes full circle with that arc, so a very important part of Kenshin's grander ideas are lost with that arc not being adapted, plus Enishi is a fascinatingly flawed character.
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ParkerALx
 Posts: 194 |
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I don't have time for a lengthy post (and couldn't hope to match the one Penguin Truth posted in terms of its analysis. I really respect the time and effort he put into it, even if I do have a different point of view when it comes to the dub), so I will just leave a brief list of scattered preferences.
- Obviously, the 2003 anime is the better adaptation of the first portion of the manga, even with its alterations. With that said, the beginning has a tendency to plods on a little too slowly, and the filler was pretty hit-and-miss (I enjoyed the faker Elric brothers two-parter, but the Lupin-style episode with the lady thief has always bored me). I don't mind FMB taking a quick-paced approach to the previously covered content, though I naturally would have preferred it if they'd taken their time. -Both series are pretty even when it comes to characterizations, though I am slightly biased towards the Brotherhood side, since I enjoyed many of the Xing characters. Characters with more complexity in the 2003 version: Lust, Shou Tucker, Greed's chimeras Characters with more complexity in Brotherhood: Barry, Kimblee, Selim Bradley, Greed -Even as someone who loves Lust's complex development in the 2003 series (though her being the lover of Scar's brother is an incredibly forced coincidence), I'm fine with her being a more straight-faced villainous in the FMB. Her confrontation with Mustang was quite a moment. On the otherhand, I wholeheartedly prefer Envy's portrayal in FMB. I felt his"evilness" was overplayed in the 2003 show. -My sympathy has always been drawn towards Wrath in the 2003 anime. His conflicted relationship with Izumi Curtis had plenty of emotional depth to it, and poor kid was really put through a lot. With that said, I found King Bradely to be the better representation of the sin of wrath than his 2003 counterpart - a child's wild outbursts can't really be compared to a vast pool of cold, calculated malice, and I loved how Bradley hid his truth side beneath a polite, often kind, demeanor. It really made his brand of wrath a unpredictable, terrifying force. -In relation to my last point, I think Izumi's motherly relationship with the Elric brothers was underplayed in the 2003 series, due mainly to the presence of Wrath. Not necessarily a huge problem, but it is a difference of focus with her character. - Presenting Selim Bradley as Pride was a terrific idea, and he's among my favorite villains in the series. Who couldn't love the idea of a horrifying abomination hidden in the guise of a young boy? I can't help but feel Arakawa lifted his fondness for Mrs. Bradlet from Wrath's mommy issues subplot in the 2003 series, and I appreciate the added depth it added to his character. -Overall, I felt FBA had a larger sense of scale than the 2003 series. Father's plot was a much larger threat that justified that levels of conspiracy supporting it. In comparison, I could never buy into Dante's endgame as a natural conclusion to the show's buildup. -The humor in FBA did feel overly forced and fell flat at times, but I didn't mind it much.
Hunter x Hunter was another example of Furuhashi not really getting the source material, though. There were major shifts in tone and characterization throughout his adaptation that don't sit right with fans of the manga. It definitely has its merits, but it doesn't work as a translation of Togashi's original story. At some point, he would have been better off making a divergent series like 2003 Fullmetal Alchemist than trying to adapt the manga directly. |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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Actually, the idea that FMA's universe is a parallel one to our own is foreshadowed from early on in the series. Some of that you'd probably only catch on re-watch if you're looking for it, but there are some more obvious hints that pile on as it gets closer to the end: like when Dante leads the characters into an obviously-Christian church and says that it was for a "religion that died out long ago." So it definitely wasn't something they put together at the last minute. It's often not easy to catch all the foreshadowing, but it's there.
I don't think that's true. The manga also builds toward the ending it has from early on in the series. Also, the decision to make FMA a parallel to Germany during and right after WWI ties in a little too much to the thematic stuff about war, racism and neoconservatism that Aikawa and Mizushima added to the first anime, for me to think it wasn't their idea. This idea likely comes from Arakawa saying she based Amestris off England from around the turn of the century, and that being where Ed and Hohenheim first land when they cross the gate (in London during WWI) in the first anime. But I don't think she meant it to be a literal "parallel," just a fantasy analogue to it the way Game of Thrones is to England during the War of the Roses. It is true, though, that Arakawa changed a lot of details from her manga based on the fan response to the 2003 series, as well as just getting inspired by certain aspects of it. Hope brings up one in the podcast with Hughes's greater presence as a "posthumous character." I also remember reading an interview somewhere where she said that the scene in Briggs where Ed is impaled and uses his alchemic "life force" to save himself, was apparently inspired by Envy stabbing and (temporarily) killing him at the end of the first anime. Arakawa was vocal about enjoying that series and the new direction it took, including in ways she didn't adapt into her manga (for example, she really liked the greater fleshing-out the homunculi had in 03 and learning about how they were connected to their creators). She clearly had a vision for her version from the get-go but was willing to change around little details as she or her fans liked. Last edited by SailorTralfamadore on Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:55 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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PusoPimp
 Posts: 58 |
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I kinda feel like it makes a somewhat even field. The original FMA did ultimately run on Adult Swim action for 6 years as opposed to Brotherhood's 4 years in terms of run. I'd say the reaction from more casual fans tips to '03 too though since that's the series they think of when they saw Brotherhood. That said...I feel like which will be the definitive FMA is something we won't find out for a few years since these more casual viewers who identify '03 as the definitive one tend to be older and the ones who view Brotherhood as that tend to be younger viewers (I say older and younger kinda loosely though, like maybe early-mid 20s and up vs. teenagers presently). So I guess the next wave of anime fans, presumably the nicktoons anime generation I guess start discovering the rest of the genre the one most of them gravitate toward will probably be more decisive than what current fans think since it'll be more effectively the older title you should check out to get into the genre to them. |
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SailorTralfamadore
Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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Yeah, I tend to agree that we won't really know what is the more "definitive" FMA anime in fandom until a group of fans who weren't around when either series was airing comes of age. FMAB is growing more right now, but even that I think is falling off, since it's been relegated to the late-night slots on Adult Swim. Its fans are vocal, but also seem to be more insular in anime fandom. The first FMA had a much broader appeal outside of just people who watched anime -- which was mostly due to it hitting during the Anime Boom, I'm sure, but I think that its greater focus on character/thematic stuff does make it more appealing to people who aren't really fantasy-genre fans. To give an example, I'm one of those people, and I doubt that I would've been as into FMA as I am now had I been first exposed to it through the manga or Brotherhood.
All that said, I agree that Brotherhood probably would've been really popular too if it came out at that time. The time was ripe for any shonen action show that had a little more to say than Naruto did, which is true for both of them. |
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gedata
 Posts: 615 |
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From this example alone, I'm just not seeing it. How does the evidence of a dated religion that greatly resembles Christianity in their world foreshadow the existence of another dimension entirely? Besides at that point it was fairly late in the series and the truth regarding what's beyond the Gate wasn't revealed long afterwards, which kinda defeats the purpose of foreshadowing in the first place any way. |
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SailorTralfamadore
Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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It more than "greatly resembles" Christianity; it is Christianity, and it shows their world was essentially the same as ours before some event in its past set it on a different course (so Christianity died out instead of becoming the predominant religion of the Western world). It doesn't directly state "our world exists on another plane" but it sets up enough similarities that finding out "this is a version of our world where different stuff happened, and our world is another universe in this story" shouldn't come off as "something that the writers pulled out of their butts at the end." Foreshadowing doesn't have to directly tell you what's going to happen to count as foreshadowing. That said, I just remembered that when Ed is in the Gate the first time (when he tried to resurrect his mother) he saw a bunch of images of historical events from our world. He has a flashback where he discusses everything the Gate showed him and you actually see a bunch of the images, and they're real photographs of stuff like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nazi rallies. I'd say that's pretty direct. |
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Videogamep
 Posts: 564 Location: CA |
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That doesn't really feel adequate to me. Dante mentioning the history at the church was only 5 or 6 episodes earlier if memory serves (I rewatched both about a month ago) and that isn't really enough. For me, something that big needs to be foreshadowed more than just having two brief, unrelated scenes almost 40 episodes apart. It just felt out of place even with that in mind. |
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amarielah
 Posts: 178 |
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A lot of people in this thread have mentioned that Brotherhood "comes together more" and resolves all of its plot threads, but that's one of the things I found a little...off...about it. Things all came together just so, sometimes to the detriment of suspension of disbelief. It's like Zach and Hope said: "Good thing I have this force field eating dinosaur!" As I was watching, I just noticed all these coincidences -- both big and small -- that moved the plot along a little too conveniently.
I've gotten into long debates about the minutia of both series with people over the years, but I've come to realize that I really just don't care for the broader themes in Brotherhood. Setting aside all of the nitpicky things about it that rubbed me the wrong way, I just didn't agree with its moral position, and so I found myself rolling my eyes in a lot of pivotal moments. It doesn't matter if a series is flawlessly plotted if you can't take what it's saying very seriously, after all. And I don't think it was flawlessly plotted, even if the plot was overall more cohesive than that of the 2003 version. So yeah. Thematically speaking, I just thought that the 2003 series was stronger. I also just happen to love parallel universes as a plot device, and situations where magical worlds interact with mundane ones, so that didn't hurt matters at all. I remember when I first watched the series, and I saw those images from Earth flashing in the Gate, I actually squealed out loud, and became much more invested in the series. I think my first pet hypothesis was that the FMA world took place in some post-apocalyptic future, ala Scrapped Princess, which I already thought was a super awesome twist. But then the parallel universe connection was revealed and I was so, so happy about it. |
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Wayne.No
 Posts: 13 |
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So I told my self up and down I was not going to listen to this just cause I'm tired of comparison between the two shows as a thing. But I broke cause I got bored and ran out of podcasts to listen to. And I don't wanna just post a text wall of point by point what I thought. But there are something that I just wanna say I guess?
I actually enjoyed the characterization of almost all the characters Including Scar who became one of my favorite characters in the show by the end and Roy who is my favorite character in Brotherhood specifically. But I am a super big Shonen guy so that might be a part of that. Also while yeah the Dwarf in the flask set up a lot of the bad things that happen in the show I think there are a lot of bad human characters in the show that are arguably are worse. Also I am super glad that Zac liked the Roy vs Lust episode because that is also my favorite episode and the episode that got me back into really liking and watching a lot of anime. FMA Brotherhood is probably my favoruite anime of all time just because it hits every /single/ one of my buttons and I can't really explain it and I know it has flaws but I can't help but love it. |
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gloverrandal
Posts: 406 Location: Oita |
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Narrative by default has to have coincidences and chances to move the plot along, doesn't it? The 2003 had plenty of coincidences in it's own right like Dante being Izumi's teacher who would go on to teach the Elrics, or the fact only 7 people in history seem to have ever attempted human transmutations and Dante knew each and every one of them and were able to recruit them. To me, complex themes like time travel and alternate worlds need to be a central part of a narrative in order for them to work best. To imput them in the finale seems like a huge deus ex machina. A current anime about different worlds is Yu-Gi-Oh! ARC-V where it established early on there were 4 different dimensions that all have their own history and setting and that factor is a main plot point. Even before the reveal, there were lots of hints about it like characters from the other dimensions being ignorant or confused about certain things in the dimension the show takes place in which led fans to speculate about the twist before it happened if they were so clueless about everyday conveniences. Fullmetal Alchemist didn't really have that, and then suddenly there was an entire movie about Ed living in WWII Germany. It came out of left field and just seemed like an entirely different show and an odd way to conclude a series that was up until then set in a fantasy world . I would compare it to if One Piece's treasure turned out to be a dimension transporter to our Earth and the finale was the Straw Hats fighting against Osama Bin Laden like Ed and Al went off to stop Hitler and the atomic bomb at the end of Conqueror of Shamballa. It's an odd way to end a fantasy series to me |
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