Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Revolutionary Girl Utena
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SejinPK
Posts: 129 |
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How is what you've said about language different than what happens with art, and especially art like Utena, which, due to its abstraction and obscuring, inherently lends itself to myriad interpretations? With art, there's the intent of the creator(s)/artist(s), but there's also the perception/interpretation of the viewer(s). Creators have their own worldviews, which inform their intent, while viewers also have their own worldviews, which inform their perceptions/interpretations. To me, this communication from a creator/artist to a viewer seems the same as communication from a speaker to a listener, or from a writer to a reader. Further, at least with spoken communication, because it's immediate, you have the opportunity for clarification of intent and perception on the part of the speaker and listener, respectively, which can help with bridging differing worldviews. I think you could also make the argument that such abstraction and obscuring is somewhat similar to what you said about "the language itself hid[ing] what we're trying to talk about." I think it's very doable to discuss in words the language hiding the topic, you just have to be more methodical, thorough, and careful with your words than is often the case in more casual conversation. I'm not trying to argue against you. Rather, it seems like you see a fundamental difference between how something like Utena communicates and how people more typically communicate with words, which sounds interesting to me and is something I'm not really seeing the same way, so I'm hoping you'll elaborate. 
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Kikimani
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I find it oddly egotistical to determine that any creative work is bad because it's not immediately accessible to me/the widest cross-section possible/but I really mean me me me me. Why should an artist feel obligated to create a work with in built mass appeal? Is there some moral virtue attached to such a goal and what is it? Are there particular themes that are so Important to Humanity that they must be laid plain?
A lot of it comes down to taste. Issues arise because we tend to equate taste with intellect therefore if I like x I'm super smart but if I like y I'm dumb. Or that stance is a popular position so we get defensive if we're not into the "right" kind of things and feel a need to justify it. A lot of it comes down to discomfort with being ignorant -- in its plainest meaning of "lacking knowledge" -- or being taken out of our comfort zone. I love poetry but it's a genre that is intensely about, among other things, language's complexity so it's hard to enjoy if you need everything about it to be immediately accessible. You have to get comfortable with your ignorance, with enjoying it at one level, knowing there's much more to enjoy on the second, the third, the tenth reading. Film-wise, my godfather gave me the silent version of the Phantom of the Opera when I was a kid, and I credit that with making me comfortable with film languages that were far from the current mainstream. I find that for a lot of persons once you put a film/anime/book/whatever in front of them that strays from the norms (whatever their norm is) they start to resist immediately. They've already created a deadline for the work to make things immediately clear or they're gonna GTFO. Some of us are just more openly curious? Or our tastes dictate what we want to be more curious and adventurous about. That's fine. I can't be interested in everything; I'm well aware when I'm rationalising what is an instinctive dislike for something and am A-OK with that. I figure it's my brain's way of preserving my sanity  .
It's fair if someone doesn't like Utena and thinks the style overtakes the story. That's a completely different position than giving a thumbs down because the creator didn't try to make it accessible to 9th graders/widest audience possible/I don't get it so boo. I started watching Utena a few weeks ago after AniFem did a podcast. (I wanna listen to it but I don't wanna be spoiled.) I don't get all the symbolism. I don't have the time or energy to critique all of the Greek chorus lyrics , but I find the overall visual style and narrative structure intriguing and the characters a lot of fun. The word "pretentious" is being thrown around a lot but I think the show has a healthy sense of humour about itself. It's not afraid of deflating its own seriousness, at least in the 20 episodes I've seen so far.
I am most puzzled about Anthy because of her oblique automaton nature. I really wanna see how that plays out considering that so many feminist-minded viewers dig the show a lot. Thanks for a great opener review, Jacob! Can't wait for you to catch up. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Why would that be egotistical? Shouldn't a reviewer or critic analyze a property based on whether it appealed to them?? I don't understand this reflexive viewpoint that a critic is not allowed to have an opinion. This makes no sense to me. The only reason I read a review of something is because I want to know the critic's personal opinion on it. I want their judgment. Yet, we are told that somehow it's not fair for anyone to offer judgment on a work. But still, we want reviews? What is the purpose? I think there is an idea out there by many that the purpose of a review is to simply affirm their appreciation for the content that they like. In other words, the reviewer should not interject their personal (i.e. "me me me me") judgment but should instead merely state in an android-like manner the various features of the production, and why it appeals to some people. Thus, the person reading the review can have a sense that their personal understanding of these features is validated and not interfered with by those who would throw a monkey wrench into their interpretation. This idea irks me. The lesson for me is that a property that has wider appeal is more likely to cause more critics to feel as if it appealed to them personally. Thus, it will generate more universal acclaim. This makes sense and is logical. So people shouldn't complain that something with intentionally narrow appeal is judged poorly for not engaging the masses. |
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Saidah Gilbert
Posts: 28 Location: Trinidad and Tobago |
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This is the first time I am watching Revolutionary Girl Utena. The first impressions I got were:
- Oh look at all the old time art styles! - Nice catchy OP and ED. - Like the insert fight song! - Why is the girl wearing a boy's uniform that is different than all the other boys in her school? - While it is true that the rules do not say that girls are forbidden from wearing a boy's uniform, surely the rules state what the girl's uniform is? As far as I know, that means the rules are clearly stating that girl is supposed to wear the girl's uniform. But, anime-logic. - Why is the slave girl black? Or why does the slave girl have to be the only dark-skinned one there? Then I read the review and all this sex/gender symbolism came up. I even had to learn a new word:yonic. I've never seen that word before. 'Revolutionise the world' meaning 'let's make a new world for ourselves because we don't like this one'? That completely passed me by. I thought that they were referring to a hidden master with a secret plan of world domination or something. So I guess it's not just going to be a shojo action/romance with yuri elements, then? |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Although I have never watched the show before, I have always wondered upon seeing the images if there was a particular thought process that went into making the rose bride girl dark skinned, particularly given Anime's woeful history with depicting dark skinned characters. I suppose I will find out.
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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DanQ
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This question is still unaswered till our days ~_^.
she is Indian, and it's because Chiho Saito like little exotic characters  . (and don't call her "slave girl", it's "rose bride" ~_^.
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Why should Utena be simpler? There are people who enjoy analyzing what they watch\read. If you are not one of them or have no interest in this particular story, then it is fine, but it also fine for a show to pose a challenge to its audience. Discovering, analyzing and interpreting is what makes it fun for its audience.
For me telling that a complex show is bad just because it is complex is like telling that a mystery story is bad, because it doesn’t tell you who is the murderer in the second chapter\episode, so I don't see it as a valid criticism. If you want to make a valid criticism, then provide good arguments why it fails at being a complex and well-written show. |
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Shay Guy
 Posts: 2137 |
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I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but my point is that even if you don't have one specific set of (admittedly very serious) problems, the ones that you do have still matter. Having a brain trying to reject your body matters. Persecution matters. Living in a society that accepts higher levels of violence against people like you than it would other people matters. Living in a society that doesn't want people like you to participate in its institutions matters. Needing accommodations other people don't need and often aren't willing to provide matters. And the causes of all these things that matter also matter. --- Going back to the discussion about accessibility... obviously, something that resonates with nobody at all isn't much good. All else being equal, resonating with fewer people offers no advantages over resonating with more. The key phrase is "all else being equal", which it never is, and Jacob's argument seems to be that Utena could only have resonated as powerfully as it does with its audience by giving up on resonating the same way with the broader public. (To have any chance of rolling a 6 on Efron's dice, you have to choose the die that loses to All-Threes two-thirds of the time.) It looks like he's only beginning that argument, though, so I'm interested in reading more. I may need to watch the Saionji duels again sometime, to comment properly on the argument that Utena defeats him in part because he doesn't accept his femininity. IIRC, he treats the way she guards her rose as the right and proper behavior for any duelist, which would suggests he considers himself no different... and I don't remember any difference in their actions during the final charge. So the chain of causation from thematic point to resolution isn't as clear for me as it is in a lot of more conventional storytelling, even taking the sword/rose symbolism as a given (entirely reasonable). Anyway, here's another question for everyone. How did Saionji come to be the Engaged in the first place? If he won Anthy in a duel, who was the opponent? |
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whiskeyii
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It absolutely can be, but that is just barely scratching the surface of what Utena is trying to say. I've certainly run into folks who enjoyed it as a magical romp full of pretty symbols the first time, only to get hit with a "Holy shit, *that's* what that meant" on a rewatch. Utena is probably one of the few shows that actually feels rewarding on subsequent viewings just because of just how far back the foreshadowing goes in this show.
For me, I think Saionji represents a kind of overwhelming "tough guy" masculinity in contrast to, say, Touga's softer "ladies' man" approach. Going into detail would be spoilerly, but I'd say the best way to describe Saionji is "unyielding", as in the up-to-eleven stereotype of manliness of guys never asking for help, never compromising, never having time for all that namby-pamby, wishy-washing feelings crap. It actually matches up quite nicely with an over-the-top and very on-the-nose depiction of "what a man should be" from the last volumes of the manga Otomen, so I kind of wonder if Saionji is supposed to be a representation of Japan's old-fashioned "man's man" stereotype. Also, if I had to guess, I'd say probably Juri.  All the others seem like they'd be keen on keeping the Rose Bride.
EDIT: Almost forgot! This:
is actually partially answered in the manga. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it to fans of the anime; it's basically what the Princess Tutu manga is to the anime: overly condensed, and missing a lot of the characterization and nuance that made the anime great. Anyways, it says that she just bought it from the uniform's manufacturer, so it's technically school-approved. |
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wyntre_rose
 Posts: 111 |
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Just wanted to say that I am very much looking forward to this discussion! I tried watching Utena when it was first released on DVD in the States and so much of it went over my head that I never got around to finishing it. Recent events in my life, as well as certain things I have just begun to discover about my own identity, have made me want to try to watch it again, but I've been too intimidated to start over... until now. So, thanks, Jacob! Excited to take this journey again.
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nargun
Posts: 925 |
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spoiler[Utena is the vehicle by which Anthy escapes ootori] To be fair, I had to have that one pointed out to me. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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Utena definitely takes elements from shoujo stories and lures you into thinking that it is one at the beginning, but ultimately it twists and shatters these elements cruelly. If you go into this series expecting a generic shoujo series, where the main heroine finds her prince charming and a touching and sweet love springs between them, then oh boy! |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Well, I watched the first two episodes. I was kind of expecting to come away from it skeptical, based on my experience with Yurikuma, but I actually liked it just fine. I thought that the narrative was straightforward enough for now that I didn't find it pretentious. (Except for MAYBE the chorus singing before the duels. I really think that doesn't add anything at all and feels forced.)
The only other negative that I really saw in the first episode was the introduction of Utena playing basketball and apparently not even playing on a team? That seemed weird, like they were almost indicating that she just plays solo against a whole team of guys and beats them all? That's a bit too much for me. I mean, I would assume that that wasn't the intention, but there was no indication given that she had teammates. We just see her playing up against a bunch of random dudes, schooling them all, and then a guy at the end of the scene is like "Well, that girl just aced all of us." Basketball just does't work like that. Other than that, I really enjoyed the first two episodes. Utena as a protagonist is just gallant enough for me to like her, though ignorant enough to also seem human. She's not my favorite protagonist, since she has that nonchalant streak to her that can be annoying to me sometimes (I know having heroes who are "distant" and acting like everything is no big deal is supposed to make them look more cool, but I think it is far too over-used in anime). But yet she does have some kind of honorableness to her that mostly counters any negative vibes i'd get from the "distant hero" cliche. I will keep watching for now. |
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swordclash
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Oh geez, I'm seeing a lot of hate here. I'll just say this - do not assume people are pretending to be passionate about this series just to sound smart. Utena saved my life, and it's still something I return to in moments of despair.
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