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EP. REVIEW: The Executioner and Her Way of Life


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RenimLS



Joined: 26 Mar 2014
Posts: 119
Location: North America
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 11:11 am Reply with quote
I can't recall when the detail was pushed in the LN, but at minimum the lead up to the events in episode 5 would paint that this isn't actually as big of a wedge between Menou and the Church as you'd get the impression of from the anime. spoiler[The wedge here ends up mostly between Menou and Orwell, not Menou and the Church. Orwell is the leader of one of the local Faust branches, and not one of the leaders of the Faust's headquarters. The lesson Menou takes from all this is to not trust the local Faust so readily, but that was a schism that predated these events.

Executioners are an independent branch within the Church, and the LN does make clear that most of the branches involved in managing territory do not appreciate the presence of Executioners operating within their jurisdiction. This is because Executioners can readily carry out their duties outside the authority of the local Faust and they can request material aid from the local Faust. Most local branches hate the Executioners using up their limited resources (especially if they feel they get nothing in return), so are more often than not uncooperative, frequently force Executioners to go through hoops to get any kind of material assistance, or even completely unsupportive by making up excuses to justify not providing support. This is probably why Menou is depicted relatively poor, as material aid for her work is limited.

Menou had a positive relationship with Orwell prior to this, because Orwell and her branch were extremely cooperative with Menou's work now and in the past and readily provided material assistance when needed. This combined with Orwell's past deeds and combined with how she treats Menou helps to make Menou have faith in Orwell as someone looking out for the public.]
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John the Dark Lord



Joined: 19 Jun 2020
Posts: 236
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 11:11 am Reply with quote
FilthyCasual wrote:
Come to think of it, is it ever stated how long the Isecutioners have been in the business? If Orwell's the one who leaked isekai summoning to the Noblesse, then isekai kiddos shouldn't have been popping up again in their world any later than like 50 or 60 years ago.


Even in the LN, we aren't given an exact timeframe, but from what we learned from Flare in that flashback, Isekai kiddos must have been around for several centuries. Executioners were probably created right after the Four Major Human Errors were sealed, since avoiding the creation of another one is the reason they exist. When Orwell said that, she meant the Noblesse from those two cities, since the info was just bribery so they wouldn't get in her way.
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DRosencraft



Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 665
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 12:31 pm Reply with quote
I'm definitely chalking this one up to "lost in translation from written to visual narrative," as it's far too hard to imagine "I want to be young again" as the entire crux of the evil plot that is driving this season. That something else was going on was obvious from the get-go. Inference tells me that Orwell at a minimum has other superiors, despite there being no concrete indication of such to this point.

But halfway through the season I know it's obviously too soon for the plot to be hitting its climax, so there's something else, some other shoe to drop, soon to come. My issue, I guess, is that if Orwell really isn't the big-bad of the season, and this show doesn't end up getting a number of additional seasons, it feels like they've spent an incredibly inordinate amount of time on a relatively petty villain. It makes sense for a longer story being told to have this much being fleshed out. But in a single or two cour series, this seems like such a weak development that it should have been relegated to a much smaller chunk, not stretched into what is now coming up on episode 6.

I want to like this show because it seems to want to do some interesting things. But it's leading to other decisions that are harder to reason with.
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Nev999



Joined: 05 Aug 2021
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 12:55 pm Reply with quote
Imagine having an elderly female villain whose motivation wasn't to restore her youth. Wild concept.

Yeah, this episode didn't work for me. Orwell's motivation didn't seem to tie in with any of the potential more interesting things that could be explored about the church, it gives Menou and easy out for rescuing Akari feeling too conflicted, and it's incredibly cliche cardboard villainy, as is all the monologuing.

What will determine if the plot can get past this is I guess, if it's more than it seems, if Akari learns the truth about what Menou was planning to do and how she reacts, or if some other event is triggered. That would make it potentially worthwhile. Otherwise I want this plot point to be over.


Last edited by Nev999 on Mon May 02, 2022 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5847
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 12:55 pm Reply with quote
DRosencraft wrote:
My issue, I guess, is that if Orwell really isn't the big-bad of the season, and this show doesn't end up getting a number of additional seasons, it feels like they've spent an incredibly inordinate amount of time on a relatively petty villain.


There was a certain high profile fantasy show on Amazon, not too long ago, that dealt with how sometimes certain things, spoiler[are not as permanent or as long lasting as we would wish them to be.]
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Iron Maw



Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 492
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:03 pm Reply with quote
RenimLS wrote:
I can't recall when the detail was pushed in the LN, but at minimum the lead up to the events in episode 5 would paint that this isn't actually as big of a wedge between Menou and the Church as you'd get the impression of from the anime. spoiler[The wedge here ends up mostly between Menou and Orwell, not Menou and the Church. Orwell is the leader of one of the local Faust branches, and not one of the leaders of the Faust's headquarters. The lesson Menou takes from all this is to not trust the local Faust so readily, but that was a schism that predated these events.

Executioners are an independent branch within the Church, and the LN does make clear that most of the branches involved in managing territory do not appreciate the presence of Executioners operating within their jurisdiction. This is because Executioners can readily carry out their duties outside the authority of the local Faust and they can request material aid from the local Faust. Most local branches hate the Executioners using up their limited resources (especially if they feel they get nothing in return), so are more often than not uncooperative, frequently force Executioners to go through hoops to get any kind of material assistance, or even completely unsupportive by making up excuses to justify not providing support. This is probably why Menou is depicted relatively poor, as material aid for her work is limited.

Menou had a positive relationship with Orwell prior to this, because Orwell and her branch were extremely cooperative with Menou's work now and in the past and readily provided material assistance when needed. This combined with Orwell's past deeds and combined with how she treats Menou helps to make Menou have faith in Orwell as someone looking out for the public.]


That sounds far interesting then the generic "evil church" twist that were supposedly getting here.
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John the Dark Lord



Joined: 19 Jun 2020
Posts: 236
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:09 pm Reply with quote
DRosencraft wrote:
But halfway through the season I know it's obviously too soon for the plot to be hitting its climax, so there's something else, some other shoe to drop, soon to come. My issue, I guess, is that if Orwell really isn't the big-bad of the season, and this show doesn't end up getting a number of additional seasons, it feels like they've spent an incredibly inordinate amount of time on a relatively petty villain. It makes sense for a longer story being told to have this much being fleshed out. But in a single or two cour series, this seems like such a weak development that it should have been relegated to a much smaller chunk, not stretched into what is now coming up on episode 6.


Light Novel adaptations usually cover 3 or 4 volumes in a cour, but this one is only doing two. We are still within the first volume of the novels,
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boldulysses



Joined: 21 Apr 2020
Posts: 87
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:14 pm Reply with quote
The most disappointing part of the straightforwardness of this episode is that the moral ambiguity of Menou's mission coupled with the trope-subverting first episode twist had my hopes up for a less paint-by-numbers show. Sigh.

Quote:
sudden but inevitable betrayal


I approve of this reference.

Quote:
• I'm still not in love with the Automaton designs in the show. The fact that they look like living blood golems is neat, but the execution gives them a more plastic-y look than I imagine was intended. The angel that Orwell summons is at least cooler than the generic suit of armor from the train episode.


Agreed. They stand out in contrast to the above-average production values elsewhere in the show.
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DRosencraft



Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 665
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:32 pm Reply with quote
John the Dark Lord wrote:
DRosencraft wrote:
But halfway through the season I know it's obviously too soon for the plot to be hitting its climax, so there's something else, some other shoe to drop, soon to come. My issue, I guess, is that if Orwell really isn't the big-bad of the season, and this show doesn't end up getting a number of additional seasons, it feels like they've spent an incredibly inordinate amount of time on a relatively petty villain. It makes sense for a longer story being told to have this much being fleshed out. But in a single or two cour series, this seems like such a weak development that it should have been relegated to a much smaller chunk, not stretched into what is now coming up on episode 6.


Light Novel adaptations usually cover 3 or 4 volumes in a cour, but this one is only doing two. We are still within the first volume of the novels,


Hence, what I led off with - it's fine if they're expecting this is going to get the time to fully develop the entire story as an anime. But we generally know that's a rarity, hence why you don't normally attempt 1:1 adaptations of source material. This all would set up well as a written story with all the mystery elements, etc, knowing that the publication horizon is so far out for a written story. But when you have an anime that you're likely only getting 12 or 13 episodes to tell your story, 24 if you're lucky, more if you're really lucky. If the anime ultimately goes that long, it's fine. At the moment, it's setting up to be a poor decision by the anime team.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5847
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:38 pm Reply with quote
boldulysses wrote:
The most disappointing part of the straightforwardness of this episode is that the moral ambiguity


There is no moral ambiguity. What Menou is doing is evil. I think it is fair to say, even she knows that.

Yeah, she kills those evil ones drunk on their new power, but she also kills the innocent ones that just want to lead a normal life.

Excepting scale, what she is doing is no different than what the SS did in Nazi Germany and what the Sentinels do in the X-Men universe.
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bassgs435



Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 2:10 pm Reply with quote
DRosencraft wrote:


Hence, what I led off with - it's fine if they're expecting this is going to get the time to fully develop the entire story as an anime. But we generally know that's a rarity, hence why you don't normally attempt 1:1 adaptations of source material. This all would set up well as a written story with all the mystery elements, etc, knowing that the publication horizon is so far out for a written story. But when you have an anime that you're likely only getting 12 or 13 episodes to tell your story, 24 if you're lucky, more if you're really lucky. If the anime ultimately goes that long, it's fine. At the moment, it's setting up to be a poor decision by the anime team.

It's fun to see someone complain about a JC Staff show being too slow and being too faithful to the source LNs when an extremely common complaint against JC Staff LN adaptations is that they rush things and leave out stuff from the LNs (one of the most infamous examples being Magical Index. But I've also seen the complaint against better adaptations like DanMachi), JC Staff takes their time for once and it's now also bad. There's no right anwer, it seems
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3442
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 2:15 pm Reply with quote
boldulysses wrote:
The most disappointing part of the straightforwardness of this episode is that the moral ambiguity of Menou's mission coupled with the trope-subverting first episode twist had my hopes up for a less paint-by-numbers show. Sigh.

I haven't watched the show but I've been reading the review just for this reason, I wanted to see if the show was going to do something interesting with its premise or abandon it all in favor of the typical story. It really seem like this episode went hard for the usual story so I guess I'm glad I skipped it. But at the same time I can kinda understand the writer, its hard to do a story without a BBEG (especially if you want it to become popular) and they need some sort of credible threat so they can't have the main character have the backing of a large institution. So its not really a surprise that the church turn out evil, just disappointingly cliche. Exploring the moral complexity of "is it evil to kill one person to save plenty?" is much harder than simple morality of "bad guy is bad" and far less popular, especially when it involves killing the typical audience self insert character.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5847
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 2:59 pm Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
Exploring the moral complexity of "is it evil to kill one person to save plenty?" is much harder than simple morality of "bad guy is bad" and far less popular, especially when it involves killing the typical audience self insert character.


I get what you are saying, and you are right, if we were only dealing with one person, or even a couple. But they are killing all summoned outsiders, for simply being people that could be evil and dangerous. There is no mercy.

Other anime have dealt with this conundrum though isolation and training, weeding out bad apples as they appear. Which would be a good story for moral complexity. But this society goes for the draconian solution, without public awareness. Silent genocide.

And they do this, while not publicly acknowledging the fact, that the people of this world are the ones creating this problem, that it is this world that are kidnapping people from other worlds for war, power, and other designs, and instead of trying to help the victims, and prevent them from becoming dangerous, they kill them out of hand.

So if you or your loved ones, get summoned to this world, it is an automatic death sentence. I have no pity for a world that kidnaps spoiler[a little girl and then turns her into an apocalyptic mad killing machine.]. I like Menou and Momo, I see them as victims also, but just like the spoiler[apocalyptic mad killing machine], there is a point when you cease being a victim and become what you kill.
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MagicianMan



Joined: 28 Jun 2020
Posts: 120
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 3:14 pm Reply with quote
I feel like the show picked a really bad place to end the episode. I think the Orwell and spoiler[the real Akari] reveals really needed to happen in the same episode to keep people hooked. I think there'd be less people writing the story off as a by the books "church bad" plot if they had been able to squeeze just a little bit more of the plot in.

It's unfortunate to see a lot of people losing interest because the anime waited too long to play it's hand.
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Regalli



Joined: 26 Apr 2022
Posts: 108
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 3:35 pm Reply with quote
I’d been suspecting (and having not read the LNs or manga, maybe the plot is still heading towards) something related to the fact that otherworlders aren’t just powerful due to their Pure Concepts, Menou says in episode two that their bodies are good fuel for the magecraft that powers so much of their world. (Which probably isn’t just Menou lying to someone who wouldn’t know better, spoiler[given the terrorists melting into the automaton in episode 3 and Flare saying it about Menou herself in Episode 4, before Orwell brings it up here about Menou as well. Which, incidentally, INTERESTING, especially since this chamber’s apparently for blanching otherworlders’ personalities.] Maybe you can remove a Pure Concept, or even securely attach it or send some of these kids home… but it’s way more valuable to the church to have them murdered and used as magic supplies. You don’t set up a protagonist who’s a regretful assassin who thinks her job is the only way to prevent calamity and NOT have her eventually find out that’s not completely true.

But instead, at least for now, spoiler[we have an Elizabeth Bathory knockoff. Yaaaay. At least the OP is heavily hinting at Menou vs Flare eventually. Hopefully there’s some actual ideological conflict when we do.]
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