Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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D-17: Simon-Sure, I was probably gonna vote for him anyway, going from wimp to hero is always awesome and I do love GL, but it also sounds like Chagum is one of the least worthy candidates at this point on top of it. Also, I think not being macho 100% of the time can be hard for some characters to do, I think growing a brain is pretty important too. Therefore, Simon's second half is still awesome changes to me.
D-18: Rue-Don't know much about Waver, though it sounds like a pretty even match up, but I can say for sure that Rue's changes are quite personal and touching and really matter during the finale. I definitely feel comfortable voting for Rue based on what I know of her. But if she's up against Simon next time, so help her, I'm going for him. D-19: Tsume-Going on what others have said. Specifically marie-antoinette, who says she nominated both, if I had two nominees against each other, I'd certainly break down and go for the better one at that point. D-20: Saber-having seen neither, other arguments point me to Saber |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Group D-17
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Simon. Easiest decision in this entire tournament for me. I love both series, but Chagum is frankly a weak candidate for this tournament. I nominated Chagum, but Simon's growth into the leader that humanity needed is very powerful. He gains self-respect and the respect of those around him, and becomes an inspiration for the entire human race. Group D-18 Rue, Princess Tutu vs. Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero Rue. In the beginning, I actually wrote her off as a plot device that would be used to challenge Tutu's love for the Prince, and nothing more. But she slowly starts coming into focus as a main player of the show. And then we are slowly shown who she truly is, and the terrible decisions she is forced to make. I vote for Rue, the person who was able to overcome spoiler[the ravens blood]. Group D-19 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Usagi. She was one of the most annoying and weak I've seen in the beginning. It's incredible she was able to pull herself out of that deep of a hole. Group D-20 Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish I've seen both and both are good series, but I easily give this one to Saber. During the majority of Princess Jellyfish, Tsukimi is just letting herself get dragged around by Kuranosuke. Kuranosuke is impulsive and will come up with an idea and will drag Tsukimi into it, sometimes literally. Any chance she gets, Tsukimi will actually run away from him. At the end she is starting to deal with her fear of people, but is still paralyzed by normal people. Saber not only improves, her finally forgiving herself for spoiler[the fate of Camelot and her people] really touched me. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I did indeed nominate them both, in the same post even (significant in this tournament, since I nominated a fair number of characters, 11 in total, I think). It's always interesting to see when your nominees come up against each other. This is actually the only time I think it's going to happen for me this time round. If Usagi wins, I won't be too sad ... but Tsume definitely deserves it more. Edit To avoid doubleposting, I'll just edit in the Sunday tally. Really low on votes so far, where is everyone? Group D-17 Simon, 6 vs. Chagum, 3 Group D-18 Rue, 7 vs. Waver Velvet, 2 Group D-19 Tsume, 4 vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, 5 Group D-20 Saber, 8 vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, 1 Not surprising, D-19 is the closest. It is a pretty close to even match-up, though I think it's worth pointing out that, besides Key, not a single person who has voted for Usagi has mentioned having seen Wolf's Rain. And for people voting against Tsume because Key doesn't like the series, I think it's also worth mentioning that in the Best of the 2000s podcast, all three participants who weren't Key put the series quite high on their lists (it was Zac's #1, Justin's #5, and Hope's pick for the category of "Taking a uniform vision but episodes look at separate themes" which is her favourite type of anime and in her own reviews, she picked it as her #4 all-time favourite series). As for the rest, with so few votes in even the ones with a clear lead could change easily enough. So there's definitely a lot resting with those who vote today or tomorrow. |
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Keichitsu0305
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Studying for me. I have like four finals and three essays next week. Group D-17 Simon, Gurren Lagann I'm sorry but, how is Simon considered a weak candidate? He has almost three turning points in the series, moments of feeling weak yet overcoming it through either friendship or love, aids others to the best of his ability, notes when he is incapable of spoiler[political] leadership yet manages to drop his position so that the right person can lead mankind, goes out of his way to save the person he cares for, passes his legacy on for the new generation once he's no longer needed, and, most importantly, he looks great in a corset. Group D-18 Rue, Princess Tutu Sure Rider gives Waver positive feedback, but Rue has more moments (especially in the second half) of feeling guilt for her actions. When she spoiler[taints one of Mytho's heart shards so he'll be the typical bad boy, she not only feels lonely when he starts attacking other girls but, (after he's a crow)] she realizes the consequences of her wicked deeds. Group D-19 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain I don't mind if either character wins but, even as a Sailor Moon fan who has yet to watch Wolf's Rain, I'm giving it to Tsume. Usagi's development is quite wonky; at times, she can handle the situation but, then almost immediately starts acting like a child as though everything that happened before hand was meaningless. Group D-20 Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Glad Tsukimi made it this far but, Saber deserves to continue from here on out. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Oh dear, that's a pretty good reason. Good luck getting it all done. I just finished my last term so I have some idea what you're facing. When you do have time, you should watch Wolf's Rain, it's a wonderful series 
So, that vote ties Group D-19 up and the intrigue grows. I actually wouldn't mind a tie, actually, though I know it makes things trickier for minigame scoring. |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5507 Location: Mexico |
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D-17
Simon. After some thought, the choice became quite obvious. I don't think Simon regresses or becomes Kamina II at all. Sure, Kamina was the person he looked up to the most, and it is obvious that his memory will remain an important role model for him, but nevertheless Simon grows up to become a reliable and dependable leader, and becomes someone others look up to. And finally, he is able to realize that his role in mankind's strife is over and decides to live a peaceful life after all the hardship he experienced, and I don't think that should be considered as a "regression" D-18 Waver It's mostly mi bias and how long it's been since I watched Princess Tutu, but I was ver deeply impressed by how much Waver grew from his outward show-offish and arrogant self yet inner coward person to a young boy that empathizes with others and is able to see Rider as his equal and as his king at the same time, and finds the courage to ride with him to battle, and later face a powerful and scary enemy like Gilgamesh -who classifies everyone as undeserving insects- and yet manage to get acknowledged by him D-19 Tsume I repeat what I said last round, arguments in Usagi's favor haven't convinced me, since the half of Sailor Moon I've seen shows no improvement whatsoever, and it doesn't help that Tsume is such a strong character who learns to be part of a pack and finds a goal in his previously aimless life. That he can become the person that spoiler[stays by Toboe's side and cries for him until the end] speaks volumes of how much he has changed from the indiferent and solitary wolf he once was D-20 I could go either way, but I'm voting for Tsukimi since my memory of her is fresher and I can somehow relate with her inability to socialize and her disregard for looks. I thought the way Kuranosuke forces her out of her shell was simple yet very real and cute. |
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Tris8
Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group D-17
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Simon. Despite his regressions, Simon wins here. Chagum's improvement pales in comparison to what Simon becomes. Chagum matures and the potential for greatness is there, but little more beyond that. Simon starts out weak and sycophantic and eventually becomes a leader. Sure, Simon isn't perfect, but stronger than Chagum. Group D-18 Rue, Princess Tutu vs. Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero Rue. One of the protaginist's major adversaries Rue is slowly able to overcome the fate destined for her by supernatural means. That feat alone is impressive. Group D-19 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Usagi. Sailor Moon would be a contender for the biggest crybaby character reward in her starting state. She's pathetic and not very likable. She slowly overcomes this hurdles and her importance becomes so hyperbolically important is equally impressive as it laughable. Group D-20 Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish This match pains me greatly. Saber I believe had more improvement and growth, but I always found Tsukimi to be the more likable, realistic and more balanced character. Unfortunately, Saber's improvements are much grander and holistic. Saber doesn't occasionally falter to make it more credible like the case with Tsukimi. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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Because some don't consider his 'improvement' to actually be an improvement. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Fair enough but there was still one person whose reasons for voting against Tsume was because Key didn't like the show. And while I do totally get why someone wouldn't like Wolf's Rain, I think it's a show that people need to make up their own minds about. |
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WhiteHairGirls
 Posts: 4713 Location: New York City |
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Okay I have only watched Guren Lagann and half of Fate/Stay Night, so my choices will be based on other people's views.
D-17 Simon I loved watching his improvements throughout the series. He struggled for awhile trying to be like Kamina, but he later realized he should be himself instead of mimicking Kamina. D-18 Rue After reading everyone's thoughts I feel Rue is the better candidate. D-19 Tsume Once again based on the comments I think Tsume is the better choice. D-20 Saber Saber was one of the few reasons why I even gave Fate/Stay night a chance. I hated Shirou with a passion and that eventually led me to dropping the series. But I did still saw Saber grow as a character. |
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rosebrook11
 Posts: 1181 |
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Group D-17
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit I know I don't think Simon is as strong as a contender as other people do, but he does have some good improvement right before the time skip in finding his own abilities and improving his confidence. I've only seen the 1st episode of Moribito, and people who have seen more of it than I have have given good reasons for why Chagum is a weaker candidiate. Group D-18 Rue, Princess Tutu vs. Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero I love both of these characters from the bottom of my heart, but I think one of them shines above the other in terms of their improvement. Rue's transformation surprised me as I watched the show and really impacted me. Here is someone who has spent basically their entire life under the control of another person and to be able to break free from his manipulation and act on the impulse of her own personal feelings is incredible. While Waver's improvement in confidence and attitude is great, I don't think it has the same depth and impact. Group D-19 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Both of these characters have fantastic developments, but Usagi gets my vote in this match. She begins her series incrediblely selfish, lazy, annoying, scared, and has no regard for the feelings of others around her. She constantly goes off into her own little world and creates many problems for her friends. Throughout the series, Usagi learns from her mistakes and she gradually begins to mature from the immature 14 year old crybaby she is at the start to a confident young woman who has the ability to help those around her. Group D-20 Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish[/quote] As much as I love Tsukimi and her development, I have to give it to Saber who is able to completely change herself and learn to forgive herself for her actions in the past. |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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Group D-17
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit. I've seen both and own the DVD and BD of Moribito. Moribito is probably in my top ten favorite anime whereas Gurren Lagann might not make my top 50. Chagum gains experience of the outside world and he matures a little bit. Not a tremendous amount because he starts as a kid and ends as a kid. This is part of his role. Some people have said in past rounds that he grows into a man and he grows into a leader/ruler. Perhaps they are confusing him with his older brother, who looked a little like Chagum and was beginning to take on more responsibilities at court. His father was also still the Emperor. As far as Simon goes, he and his bro Kamina have things that the other lacks. Kamina is stupidly brave and a charismatic leader, while Simon lacks confidence and courage but is a clever little digger. As Kamina says, he trusts Simon because he always finds a way and can be counted on. Simon grows more brave like his bro, but he goes further. He was depressed when spoiler[Kamina died] and because of that his spirit was poisoned with despair and rage. He was not able to pilot anymore and was looked down on, but eventually was able to overcome that and won everyone's trust. After the time skip he didn't despair when Russio basically betrayed him in part because of his previous experiences. When Russio in turn falls into despair its Simon who lends him support and Simon also joins with his former enemy spoiler[the beastman Viral to pilot Gurren Laggan]. This showed that Simon was a leader that could work with even his former enemies. Not my favorite show or character but its clear to me who gets the vote. Voting for Simon, Gurren Lagann. Group D-18 Rue, Princess Tutu vs. Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero Seen both and own Princess Tutu. Waver starts off cocky and arrogant, but quickly turns into a lousy master. He in effect becomes the follower of his Servant Rider. Can't blame him too much Rider is Rider and Waver is a little weak. I think the relationship grows and Rider becomes like a big brother (aniki) to Waver and there is genuine affection, but Waver is not really an equal partner to Rider. I think he grows some backbone, which Gilgamish acknowledges but he's basically beneath Gilgamish's need to exert himself. Princess Tutu plays marvelously well with our expectations of who the villains in the story are and subtly laying hints as to characters true natures. Rue is no exception as there is groundwork laid in for her change like spoiler[ when she starts to warm up to Duck or hesitates over the things she's doing]. She's someone who has been controlled and kept down and resisting that was no small feat. Voting for Rue, Princess Tutu. Group D-19 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon. Seen parts of both a loong time ago. So we have a snarky jerk on one side who gets better and a whiny crybaby on the other side who also gets better. This one is tough because I haven't seen enough, but I seem to recall that Usagi grows from being rescued all the time to being able to protect herself. Didn't she also improve in powers as well? I think she also matures because she grows from a kid to a teenager in the series. Finally, every time I thought of this match up I kept on hearing "In the name of the moon...!". Maybe its a message. Voting for Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon. Group D-20 Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Seen all of these. I own both Fate/Stay Night and Princess Jellyfish. I've voted for Tsukimi every other time and she's had a good run, but I think that finally the incomplete nature of her story kicks in. I'm not the biggest fan of the Fate franchise. I also think Saber deserves a medal for putting up with the chauvinistic pig spoiler[Shirou] all the time. However, Saber having to deal with emotions outside duty and responsibility was a big change for her. Saber having to give up on the things she wanted most was a big deal and at the last finding some peace well that was a moment of awesome to me. The last part made Fate/Stay Night worth it to me. Voting for Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Group D-9
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Voting for: Simon I like Chagum, but he didn't start off in need of much improvement. Simon started off as a coward and became a rallying figure for humanity. spoiler[Then after the anti-spirals were defeated, he recognized that the type of hero he had become wasn't needed anymore, so he stepped down so others could lead. Because he learned from his failures what his role was.] Group D-11 Rue, Princess Tutu vs. Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero Voting for: Waver Might be I'm remembering wrong, but I feel like a lot of the change people are ascribing to Rue's resistance of the Raven's manipulations are actually a result of her being abandoned by him when he gains more direct influence over Mytho and has no use of her anymore. How much of the regret for what she did to Mytho in the second half guilt, and how much was simply despair at being cast aside? And when she is cast aside, what did she do besides cry for help? Group D-13 Tsume, Wolf's Rain vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Voting for: Tsume Haven't seen either, but going with Tsume on account of him taking a subordinate position, which I assume requires a considerable degree of restraint and swallowing of pride. Group D-15 Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Voting for: Tsukimi I mentioned last time that I found Saber less interesting because of her growth than she was at the start of the series. Going with Tsukima overcoming her near-crippling social issues. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Your assumption is indeed correct! Less than an hour left, let's see how things stand. Group D-17 Simon, 13 vs. Chagum, 3 Group D-18 Rue, 12 vs. Waver Velvet, 4 Group D-19 Tsume, 8 vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, 8 Group D-20 Saber, 13 vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, 3 So we have 3 pretty groups decided and one that is tied, with the lead switching multiple times with every vote that's come in recently. Will we get our first three-way match-up next round with Tsume, Usagi, and Saber? Or will a last minute voter break the deadlock? Tune in later, same bat time, same bat channel 
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