Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Heavenly Delusion
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Reiemye
 Posts: 8 |
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I could see it if Robin wasn't cartoonishly evil during the whole scene. Yes most SA and rape are done by people close to the victims, but this portrayal remains over-exaggerated and so imo doesn't reflect this reality (the intentionality of it is also debatable).
Not quoting the entire paragraph but I do have to amend my previous statement: I was talking about fiction that isn't what I'll call "own voices" work. Heavenly Delusion very clearly isn't that. Own voices fiction is wholly different as it's about something the author has lived through, and so must be viewed through a different lens, and I personally am more tolerant towards it regarding graphic depiction (I'm still not fond of graphic rape scenes but then it's more a matter of personal sensibilities). I do love Maus as a piece of art! |
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Theozilla
 Posts: 138 Location: Oakland, California |
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I can agree that Robin's portrayal is over-exaggerated (though I don't know if I would use cartoonish to describe it, but that's just a me thing) to a degree that it is a detriment to the effectiveness of the scene (so that specific criticism I can agree with to some extent), but at least for me personally, I feel it doesn't completely negate the parts it does well and meaningfully in service to the story and characters (and I personally feel confident in giving the benefit of the doubt in the mangaka's intentionality of wanting to reflect the sad reality of the majority of sexual assault). Which is very similar to my feelings on Berserk, a series I love, but I would say its portrayal of sexual violence (against female characters) is even more gratuitous (and frequent) than Heavenly Delusion, yet it also has enough positives to outweigh the negatives for me.
I agree that whether something is an "own voices" work is often a good guideline/general rule of thumb for determining whether something is able to portray graphic and explicit content well, but I can't treat it as an absolute hard rule with no exceptions (especially in regards to subjects like sexuality and gender, which can be extremely personal and plenty of works that may appear to not be an "own voice" could be in reality due to stuff like people being closeted). It may not be often, but I do believe non-own-voices media can sometimes successfully depict awful things in a graphic and explicit manner. And for me at least, I think Heavenly Delusion succeeds more than it fails in this case. If it didn't for other people, even if I don't agree with them, that's fine too, but that's to be expected on sensitive subject matter like this. |
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Leviathonlx1
Posts: 201 |
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I mean Robin was shown as outright evil when he was first introduced when he murdered 2 people by stomping their heads in for selling false tickets and smiling while doing it.
Honestly I think Ketil is a perfect comparison. The guy gets off from any punishment thanks to Thorfinn convincing the King to go away and gets to continue owning his farm. There's nothing at all to imply he won't just be sad for a bit and then go buy another young female slave to impregnate. |
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fathomlessblue
 Posts: 355 Location: Manchester, UK |
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At the risk of going off-topic here, that description really ignores the thematic point of his arc & where he ends up at the end of it. It had already been established that Ketil's need to own things, whether that be land, wealth or people, was the result of his inability to face his traumas, instead wrapping possessions around him like a flimsy armor. The result of that facade being shattered, reveals the ugly pent-up resentment behind his benevolent veneer, leading to the murder of Arnheid, and scores of his men to going their deaths in the name of his brittle masculine vanity & refusal to let his 'toys' be taken away from him. And sure, technically speaking there are no laws that result in Ketil being arrested for his crimes, but by the end of the season he is also shown to be ejected from his own legacy, both as the result of injury & his own people losing all faith in him. He has completely fallen for all the world to see. Subsequently, his son Olmar takes up the reigns of the farm, being labeled as a hero for brokering a peace deal with Canute, & while the viewer obviously knows that is a lie, he declares to live up to image & responsibility set upon him, making reparations to the families of the men killed or maimed by Ketil's assault (at the cost of half the farm's land and wealth), and by earnestly working the soil himself. He ends up materialistically poorer, while emotionally far stronger. Meanwhile, Ketil & his wife are relegated to the side, footnotes to their own legacy, watching their child truly earn the respect and love of their peers. We don't definitively know whether Ketil will have access another sex slave, but given his physical state, no longer having access to the farm's finances and most of all, being shamed and stripped of all admiration, I severely doubt it. The point of his arc was to see him fall from grace & be humbled, so having Olmar provide him the money to buy another sex slave, given both his newfound respect towards towards human life, and how beloved Arnheid was, would completely undercut that. Vinland Saga is simply not the kind of story to end on that footnote. Now let's see whether Heavenly Delusion will have anything half as insightful to say on that front, whether it be on abuser psychology, being forced to face the social repercussions of your crimes, or from the victim's perspective, coping and moving on from the long-term physical and emotional effects of trauma. Maaaaaybe the final episode will address all these issues in a satisfying way, that while not excusing how juvenile and comically cruel the execution of the twist was, at least reveals there was a genuine, if misguided consideration behind it, outside of just edgelord shock value. *sounds of groaning erupt from the manga fandom* |
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tintor2
 Posts: 1888 |
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Considering about 4 directors (including Mori) are directing the finale, I can see they are trying for quite an ambitious ending.
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Theozilla
Posts: 138 Location: Oakland, California |
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Very well said on Vinland Saga, while I don't think Heavenly Delusion's depiction of sexual assault was poorly done (and is arguably better than most seinen manga that have sexual assault in it written by cis men), Yukimura's Vinland Saga definitely executes its depiction of sexual violence better. Anyways, considering that the Heavenly Delusion manga isn't done, I think it should be understood that while episode 13 will definitely address and resolve some of the ramifications from the previous episode the season finale isn't going to resolve everything in regards to the aftermath and issues of episode 12's sexual assault. Anyways in regards to the manga, I personally feel Ishiguro has spoiler[dealt with the aftermath of Kiruko's sexual assault relatively well, with Kiruko still being in the process of redefining and rebuilding their identity. Of course that opinion isn't universal, but one thing I do want to state is that having the position that Ishiguro hasn’t done enough and/or hasn’t focused on/developed/changed the proper things (and/or done them well) to show the ramifications of Kiruko’s rape is a perfectly valid stance to have (even if I don’t personally agree with it). However, I do think trying to claim that the ramifications have been completely ignored/unaddressed is a different untrue stance, one that is inaccurate and borderline dishonest. Now maybe for some, the difference between saying something was done insufficiently/poorly (and/or not enough) is a negligible difference from saying something wasn't/hasn't been done at all, but I think it is an important distinction to make in media criticism.] |
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Theozilla
Posts: 138 Location: Oakland, California |
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For those interested in reading along with the manga, Episode 13 adapted all of chapter 33, a little more than half of chapter 34 (18/34 pages), the last page of chapter 36 (1/31 pages), all of chapter 37, one scene from the first half of chapter 38 (4/28 pages), and half of a scene from the latter half of chapter 39 (3/24 pages). This is equivalent to about 2.83 chapters of manga. 5 pages from the end of chapter 34 that are important to the plot also remain unadapted.
So combined with the brief flashes of memory from episode 3, the extended memory from Kiriko that Kiruko “remembers” in today’s episode (along with the comments from Robin’s goons) provides further evidence that Robin had (unfortunately) been in a sexual relationship with Kiriko in the past. Keep in mind Robin was in his early-to-mid 20s during 2034, and Kiriko was only 15, so that would have been statutory r*pe on Robin’s part (meaning Robin had likely always been a creep). *and before anyone tries to quote the “but the age of consent in Japan is 13” schtick to me, that’s just the national minimum age (and is currently in the process of being raised to be 16), every single prefecture in Japan has passed ordinances raising the age of consent to be 18. So besides just being ethically scuzzy, Robin being in a sexual relationship with Kiriko when she was only 15 would indeed be criminal in real-life Japan (though hopefully most people don’t need legal validation to recognize the serious ick factor of Robin having potentially been in a sexual relationship with a 15-year old). This episode also provides further hints for the theory that not only had Kiriko been shot (in her head) before the brain transplant, but that Robin was the one responsible for it. If anyone is wondering why, if Kiruko was able to break out of their tied-rope bonds on their own this episode, “why didn’t they try to escape earlier?”, besides the the pragmatic reasons that they were likely aware that they wouldn’t have escaped (or gotten far) in the first place thanks to the staff/guards Robin had with him at the filtration facility, Kiruko’s trauma experience over the course of the past two nights had also likely severely debilitated their spirit and were likely resorting to submission just to survive emotionally and mentally at that point. For anyone confused and/or frustrated that Kiruko asked Maru to not kill Robin, it is important to keep in mind and understand that it is not uncommon for survivors of sexual assault to not have a desire to kill their abusers, especially when the abuser was someone the survivor had been formerly close to and cared about (like it was with Kiruko and Robin). In addition to Kiruko’s emotional and mental state being messed up due to the trauma, another significant reason why Kiruko didn’t want Robin killed, is that they specifically didn’t want Maru to become a murderer, especially on their behalf, literally staining his hands with blood. If one can remember from episode 8, Kiruko was particularly distressed by Maru viewing himself (or more specifically “his hands”) at only being good at taking away lives, so Kiruko caring deeply about Maru not killing another person (even when it would have been largely justified) is consistent with what has been previously established about their character (and their relationship to Maru). Speaking of episode 8, hopefully most people noticed that during the scene where Mimihime gives Shiro a button from her uniform, the same OST (or a track very similar to it) from episode 8, when Dr. Usami cries after reading Hoshio’s final message, plays during this scene. If it wasn’t obvious by now, this is the point when the majority of the audience is expected to have realized that Mimihime and Shiro eventually grow up to become Dr. Usami and Hoshio from episodes 7 and 8. And those who were able to keep track of Dr. Sawatari’s panicked dialogue this episode will notice that the baby that Tokio was given in today’s episode, was the baby that did NOT have the circle drawn on its foot (and the word “maru” in Japanese can mean circle). Meaning (if we presume Maru is the child of Tokio or the clone of Tokio’s child), Maru was likely NOT the baby that Tokio received from Dr. Sawatari. Also the hardening ability Tokio displays in her cliffhanger scene this episode is basically identical to the dream(?) Tokio had of Asura in episode 6, where Asura asked Tokio “what are you good at?” So it is likely Tokio was manifesting her own abilities as a Hiruko-person in response to The Director attempting to take her baby from her. At the end of the episode we witness people from the Ministry of Reconstruction discovering the human & Man-Eater experiments that Robin Inazaki had apparently been conducting on people. If we recall from episode 3, this is apparently what Dr. Sakota (the doctor who performed the brain transplant with Haruki and Kiriko) had been rumored to be guilty of (and that Robin had apparently been “investigating”), so combined with the previous evidence that Robin had been a statutory r*pist of Kiriko, it is very possible and likely that those rumors of human & Man-Eater experimentation had actually been true about Robin himself (and thus had been attempting to deflect suspicion from himself onto Dr. Sakota). If the very last scene with Maru and Kiruko (around when the credits started) in episode 13 felt tonally jarring, that’s likely due to it being an anime original addition. The manga ends the equivalent part of the story with a somber page where you don’t see either Maru and Kiruko (directly on page) as the van drives away, with only the torn picture of Haruki left behind. And while in isolation Kiruko’s lines during the credits scene can arguably work as like a form of coping for them (with how some survivors of SA may try to initially brush off what happened to them), the cheery ED song playing over the scene really doesn’t help with that. Personally, the anime should have at least gone with a more somber remix of the song like how episode 8 used its version of the ED song. The episode 13 version still comes off as far too upbeat. The very last scene of episode 13 shows Mimihime, Shiro, Anzu, and Taka being taken by boat to a non-dilapidated bustling city. If it was obvious before, this is meant to be confirmation that the “Heaven” narrative not only took place in the past (approximately 16-15 years ago in 2023-2024), it also took place before the advent of The Calamity that caused the world to still be in a post-apocalyptic state in 2039 (Maru and Kiruko’s current time). The boat is also a subtle hint that Takahara Academy facility that the students like Tokio and Mimihime grew up in, was likely located on an island and thus was not located in either Nara or Ibaraki (said cities are both inland and do not have borders extending to the coast of Japan). Now, with this first season finished (which basically adapted up to the end of tankōbon volume 6), if anyone is interested in starting the manga, I personally would still recommend starting the manga from the beginning regardless, as in addition to the standard cutting of extra dialogue and scenes from the anime for run-time and cinematic pacing, the chapter titles and cover pages of the manga also play a role in experiencing the foreshadowing of the story that the anime can’t quite replicate (due to the inherent difference in mediums). The mangaka of Heavenly Delusion, Masakazu Ishiguro (who is active on Twitter), their most well known previous work is “And Yet the Town Moves” (also known as Soremachi), which was serialized from 2005-2016. They have also done a number of other single volume manga and short stories collections. Ishiguro's has also stated that the major influences for the Heavenly Delusion series, include the works Akira, Armored Trooper Votoms, and an old Japanese science-fiction novel titled "Dogra Magra" that was written Kyūsaku Yumeno (who appears as a character in Bungo Stray Dogs) and published in 1935. Last edited by Theozilla on Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Philmister978
Posts: 311 |
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I did notice they added in one particular detail that wasn't in the manga - That failed second take-off, that was a nice little callback to the one in the manga/episode 10
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meiam
Posts: 3442 |
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So that's it? The reasons to include rape are:
1) To have Maru be the white knight 2) Cheaply characteristic Robin as the bad guys, because you can't trust the audience to reach their own conclusion (see heaven director also loudly proclaiming how evil she is) and most importantly 3) Cheap fan service The entire thing could have been removed and everything would have worked the same, except the fan service, although you could just have Maru and Kiriko have consensual sex, but that's probably not the author kink. What a turd way to end a story. |
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Theozilla
Posts: 138 Location: Oakland, California |
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Regardless of how well or poorly one feels the inclusion of sexual assault as a story development was done, making the accusations that it was included as a form of “fan service” is a ridiculous notion. The depiction of the rape while relatively explicit was certainly not done to titliate the audience or get people off on some kind of “kink”.
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Beltane70
 Posts: 3908 |
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There's nothing entertaining about seeing a person being raped and I'd really questions someone's morals or mental health who would actually gain some kind of pleasure from it.
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Vanadise
 Posts: 504 |
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I've got bad news for you about, like... the entire hentai industry. Trends come and go, of course, but there have definitely been periods when commercial releases as a whole have had more non-consensual content than not. It may not be your kink, but it's definitely somebody's.
There's a huge market for such material; it's an entire genre that has its own tropes and traditions. As a TV show, Heavenly Delusion isn't explicit about it, but the techniques and framing it used are absolutely the same as ones used by people who produce and purchase it for erotic purposes. |
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meiam
Posts: 3442 |
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Like it or not, plenty of people enjoy watching sex regardless of context, and plenty actually like the rape fantasy. It certainly wouldn't be the first anime/manga/tv show/visual media to take advantages of that. The entire thing could have been replaced with Robin capturing Kiriko to perform experiment, this would have made more sense storywise, made Robin into a more serious antagonist and accomplished absolutely everything else just as well, except for the lack of fan service. What other conclusion can you draw from this other than it being done for fan service or author kink? |
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Ryuji-Dono
 Posts: 1219 |
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That's the problem, you talk about the scene like you really know the author himself. It's one of the most myopic ways of engaging in fan discourse.
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ab2143
Posts: 720 |
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You should tell this to the people who complained about not seeing nipples in the rape scene. Yes, there are people like that. |
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