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ANNCast - Super Game Show Bros 3

TitanXL wrote:

Other M made her a complex and great character and is a much better example than the Prime FPS series, but it's Japanese

Okay. I'm gonna just go ahead and stop you there. If you think Other M was a positive example of a female character then you don't know what that term means.

It is troubling that TitanXL usually only complains about portrayals of female characters when the point of contention is their being tough, competent and assertive, as though the real problem is that society expects women to be too capable and independent. That kind of portrayal probably can be problematical, but it's not the most serious of problems and its hard to treat somebody's complaints as credible when he only seems to be raise them in defense of women adhering to roles traditionally satisfying to men and sometimes tries to undermine the legitimacy of the subject.

Surrender Artist wrote:

It is troubling that TitanXL usually only complains about portrayals of female characters when the point of contention is their being tough, competent and assertive, as though the real problem is that society expects women to be too capable and independent. That kind of portrayal probably can be problematical, but it's not the most serious of problems and its hard to treat somebody's complaints as credible when he only seems to be raise them in defense of women adhering to roles traditionally satisfying to men and sometimes tries to undermine the legitimacy of the subject.

It's more along the lines of "So for a woman to be a good character, she has to shed her femininity and embrace masculinity in your eyes... interesting". Which says quite a lot on how femininity is looked down upon in western culture and the best way for a woman to be strong is to be as much of a man she can. It doesn't help most people who make these arguments are men themselves, which probably says something. That's the kind of female characters men want, not females. Which I thought was the whole point of these advents.

How about women themselves? Well, surely it says something when anime, manga, and Japanese games tend to have equal, if not, greater female representation than males in their fanbases than western equivalents? Could it be because most Japanese media doesn't fall into that trap? And, in fact, often time takes that very femininity western marketers despite so much and turns it into a strength by embracing it and building upon it? (Magical girl genre, anyone?) Do you really think western marketers would dare try to make a game with a female who wasn't a gun toting, sassy, one-liner snarker? Of course not, they know the western market would never accept anything other than that one specific archetype and cry foul at anything else. It's what keeps females out of starring roles in cartoons and games, or stuck in one single archetype on the off chance they get one. No Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, Altier, Eternal Sonata, Final Fantasy XIII-2, or anything that goes beyond the safe zone is going to be made. There's a reason each Lara Croft reboot continues to fail. As Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting a different result.


I suppose at the end of the day, you and ikillchicken can feel however you want on the subject, but I do believe actions speak louder than words, and actions seem to indicate women aren't in very much agreement with your side if they're flocking to the alternative.. no?

(For the record, Extra Credits is terrible and often misinformed about every topic they do. Citing that as your source destroys your credibility more than admitting you never played the game series)

There's a lot of blatant fanboyism as well as Japanese favoritism in this comment. There are tons of female characters in western games that aren't "wise-cracking-gun-toters" and even more who act like actual women. In short, not every female character in a video game is Lara Croft. I could list literally dozens of female characters who don't fit that archetype at all.

Madison Paige form Heavy Rain?

It's more along the lines of "So for a woman to be a good character, she has to shed her femininity and embrace masculinity in your eyes... interesting".

It doesn't help most people who make these arguments are men themselves, which probably says something. That's the kind of female characters men want, not females.

Well, surely it says something when anime, manga, and Japanese games tend to have equal, if not, greater female representation than males in their fanbases than western equivalents?

Do you really think western marketers would dare try to make a game with a female who wasn't a gun toting, sassy, one-liner snarker?

It's what keeps females out of starring roles in cartoons and games, or stuck in one single archetype on the off chance they get one.

For the record, Extra Credits is terrible and often misinformed about every topic they do.

I do believe actions speak louder than words, and actions seem to indicate women aren't in very much agreement with your side if they're flocking to the alternative.. no?

This is a complete straw man argument. Nobody has said anything like this. Nor has anyone criticized Japanese games for having feminine female characters. People have criticized them for being weak, ineffectual, dependant, emotionally unstable, etc. None of those are "feminine" traits.

You're kidding yourself if you believe the female characters in most Japanese games are what women want. To the contrary, these characters are overwhelmingly designed to be what men want. It's just different male tastes. Western male fans generally get off more on the Tomb Raider archetype. The athletic, sexy, gun toting action girl. So yeah, you see that in western games. On the other hand, Japanese male fans obviously get off on something different. They're a whole lot more into the super cute, often shy, ineffectual or otherwise vulnerable girls who are much more feminine (not saying that's bad) and inspire feelings of devotion and a desire to protect and nurture. So instead you see that archetype a lot in Japanese games.

Look, I'm not gonna get into anime and manga. That's really a whole other discussion and one that can't really be examined on quite the same level because of drastic differences in the respective east and western industries that go well beyond gender portrayals. Plus, I'm pretty sure if we get into that you're just gonna end up shifting the goalposts onto that when your claims about games crumble. So yeah. Nipping this one in the bud: Games are the topic at hand. Not anime and manga.

ShinnFlowen already addressed why this is blatantly false (and while you're absolutely right that Madison Paige is a terrible character, she is still doesn't fall into the archetype you put forth and therefore is still an example that contradicts your claim).

I'll agree with you that there are very few female leads in western games. However, this is also fairly true of Japanese games. Most of those games people have listed in fact do not have a female lead. They may have female characters but it still comes down to a man to be the leader. What's more, the ones that do have female leads tend to be the most glaringly male pandering so again, this is hardly about gender equality or giving women what they want.

Dismissing Extra Credits is just a cheap way of dismissing their criticism of other M without actually addressing it.

Gonna go ahead and tag this with a big blue citation needed.

Ikillchicken pretty much summed up everything so lets all hold hands and watch rainbows!

You don't really get to make generalized claims and then dismiss all the counter examples that prove you wrong when you get called out on them by Fencedude and others. Don't start a tired "east VS west" argument if you want to back out the second you start losing.

The Arland games aren't much better. Yes, the female leads go out exploring on their own and whatnot, but, again, a key feature of the battle system involves "protecting" women (though as in Ar Tonelico, other females can be the "protector" sometimes).

More problematic is how every lead is portrayed as a bumbling little blob of moé who no one in-game expects could ever do anything right. Sure, plenty of male game characters start out that way too, but the difference with the Arland games is that the female leads get coddled by everyone. I haven't gotten through Meruru yet, but in Totori and Rorona at least, it seems like every character only wants to help the female lead out because they find her adorably inept.

Even when you reach the end, the message basically seems to be "Wow! How surprising that a frail little ingenue like you managed to accomplish something!" The games are designed to present the leads as non-threatening, weak women who must be guided and protected. Unlike the typical klutzy lead RPG guy or the flaky shoujo manga heroine, whose flaws are intended to make the characters relatable, the "flawed" heroines of the Arland trilogy seem more like they were intended to capitalize on the Japanese mentality that weak women are sexually and emotionally attractive.