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INTEREST: Black Lagoon, Hellsing Creators Discuss Illegal Uploads


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ChocoBar



Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:37 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:

Yes, that's why nobody fansubbed Naruto or Bleach starting from when they were licensed early in the last decade.

And the license didn't extend until it was license by crunchyroll are they still subbing Naruto and Bleach? NO. Do they rip off crunchyroll's own subs, YES.
agila61 wrote:

The claim that all fansubbers restrict themselves to titles that they do not expect to be licensed, and if they are surprised, then they drop the title ... is so far from reality that its farcical.

Because it's the truth? You're the one who's deusional here buddy
agila61 wrote:

Look at Lililicious, a group with a "no licensed series" policy. After the announcement of the licensing of Marimite TV series one and two and the Spring Ova was announced, Lililicious dropped their work on the Spring Ova (as far as I understand, released what they had, but with QC unfinished in the last episode).

When the third TV season went to broadcast, they picked it up. Now, this was not a "highly unlikely to be picked up" title ... this was likely the conclusion of a series of titles where Nozomi had already licensed every other title in the series.

And, yes, when the license was announced mid-series, they announced the drop, ending with "Until then, Gokigenyou". And then, magically, a group called "Gokigenyou" picked up the sub.

So when a license gets announced, often its many of the same people doing the sub, they just change the name so that the "ethical fansub" group does not have its name associated with the fansub of the licensed work.

Cool Story Bro, mind telling where to find Soul Eater subbed? Since the original subber dropped the series after getting C&D letters to stop once it got licensed and didn't bother to sub it
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Soundmonkey44



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 1243
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Reading through this i find some posters comments rather amusing, I mean Illegal is illegal & wrong is wrong, certain users can try to justify it anyway they want, by saying, "well were helping it get popular" or "We do better subs" Does not really mean a thing Scanlations & Fansubs are ILLEGAL, always have been, always will be, unless you are using clips or images for Review or Parody, you are BREAKING THE LAW. No ifs ands or buts about it. While Fansubs & scans are not the soul reason anime & manga industry in Japan & the U.S. are declining, they are a decent chunk. Again Both Manga-ka's are completly justified in there comments. People who Distribute Copyrighted content online & then have the audascity to shove it in the creators face, truly do deserve a slow painful death. Twisted Evil

But yea, if you want a series wait till it comes to the states, and if it doesn't come, well thems the breaks.
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ChocoBar



Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:40 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
ChocoBar wrote:
This is the problem with the US manga industry ingeneral, it goes by the notion of "If it doesn't sell well, we'll stop releasing it" neglecting the people who actually want to buy it in the first place,


Yes, because going bankrupt publishing titles that do not earn their costs back is far better than dropping a series that doesn't earn back its cost of production?

How exactly is the publisher going bankrupt better?

Its not a notion, its simple fact of life that if the title does not earn back its cost, there is no big "pile of money" lying around to pay for it to be published anyway.

Its not as if publishers want to drop a title: they are forced to by circumstance.

Hopefully electronic editions will make it possible to keep releasing series in some form even if they drop below the level of sales that will support a print run.

But blaming publishers for dropping a title is juvenile: obviously they would rather that it sold enough to return its cost of production. The actual cause of a title being dropped is lack of sales.

So basically you're trying to say is that the people are wrong for liking an unpopular series? Let alone the fact that most publishers don't even announce it's cancellation and just stop publishing it, same thing happen to Zatch Bell, and yet you want to condemn people from using scanlations by fans who are just picking up the slack that the publisher failed to do?
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sykoeent



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 160
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:43 pm Reply with quote
ChocoBar wrote:

So basically you're trying to say is that the people are wrong for liking an unpopular series? Let alone the fact that most publishers don't even announce it's cancellation and just stop publishing it, same thing happen to Zatch Bell, and yet you want to condemn people from using scanlations by fans who are just picking up the slack that the publisher failed to do?

Hmm... how about learning Japanese? They have all those programs and you can learn. And they even have FREE TUTORS on YouTube. No one is stopping you. You're given these choices.
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hikaru004



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 2306
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:54 pm Reply with quote
I think those comments that the mangaka made were tasteless and crude. The family survivors of pancreatic cancer patients should give them a little talk about the impact of death on them and the course of the cancer on the affected relative so they should know what they are wishing on copyright infringers.

I know it's their right to speak out but sometimes counting to ten before typing is better.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:56 pm Reply with quote
ChocoBar wrote:
agila61 wrote:

Yes, that's why nobody fansubbed Naruto or Bleach starting from when they were licensed early in the last decade.

And the license didn't extend until it was license by crunchyroll are they still subbing Naruto and Bleach? NO. Do they rip off crunchyroll's own subs, YES.


"And the license didn't extend" ... what does that mean? Are you referring to the fact that the licensed release was years behind the Japanese broadcast until the simulcast deal was worked out?

Well, so what of it? Watch something else. Nothing breaks watching a show a couple years after if was broadcast.

DB dropped it, but the reason nobody else picked it up was they can't speedsub faster than a rip from a simulcast.

For the leech streaming sites that you provide content for, its all good. They don't really care whether its a fansub, a simulcast rip or a DVD rip, it all attracts viewers.

Quote:
agila61 wrote:

The claim that all fansubbers restrict themselves to titles that they do not expect to be licensed, and if they are surprised, then they drop the title ... is so far from reality that its farcical.

Because it's the truth? You're the one who's deusional here buddy


Because its bullshit. A decade back, fansubbers used to restrict themselves to titles that they did not expect to be licensed, and dropped titles when they were licensed. Nowadays there's always some group to fansub a popular series.

Of course, from Summer, the large majority of series are on legit simulcast, so it looks like it'll mostly be rips from here on out. The leech streaming sites that you are providing the content for don't care.

Quote:
agila61 wrote:

Look at Lililicious, a group with a "no licensed series" policy. After the announcement of the licensing of Marimite TV series one and two and the Spring Ova was announced, Lililicious dropped their work on the Spring Ova (as far as I understand, released what they had, but with QC unfinished in the last episode).

When the third TV season went to broadcast, they picked it up. Now, this was not a "highly unlikely to be picked up" title ... this was likely the conclusion of a series of titles where Nozomi had already licensed every other title in the series.

And, yes, when the license was announced mid-series, they announced the drop, ending with "Until then, Gokigenyou". And then, magically, a group called "Gokigenyou" picked up the sub.

So when a license gets announced, often its many of the same people doing the sub, they just change the name so that the "ethical fansub" group does not have its name associated with the fansub of the licensed work.

Cool Story Bro, mind telling where to find Soul Eater subbed? Since the original subber dropped the series after getting C&D letters to stop once it got licensed and didn't bother to sub it


Mate, it took me less than five minutes googling to find a fansub of the last episode (51). Skynight did the K-fx styling and Alma did the translation. So as far as your assumption that when one group drops a popular series, nobody ever picks it up ... you didn't even do five minutes searching to find out that Soul Eater was a bullshit example.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:59 pm Reply with quote
ChocoBar wrote:
So basically you're trying to say is that the people are wrong for liking an unpopular series?


Liking has nothing to do with anything. The people who bought the series did what they could do to keep it running, and the people who didn't buy and read a bootleg instead on the excuse that series sometimes get dropped, they helped make sure that the series was dropped.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:04 pm Reply with quote
mglittlerobin wrote:

I feel insulted by this statement, I borrow Bleach manga from the library all the time, does that make me a moocher? No, because someone still paid for that copy, so the author still received money from a sale of his book. If this statement were true, there would be a lot of anime and manga moochers who borrow from their friends, the library Nettflix, etc. I also review Bleach and earn money from reviews, which I use to buy Bleach anime, am I a moocher fan of Bleach or any other manga I borrow from the library, NO.

Realistically, public libraries exist in a separate reality from this debate. Their purpose is to promote literacy & to be there for people who are too poor to own books. They're more an education tool so you don't have to get all worked up about it. Most everyone I know who CAN afford the books buy them because it's such a hassle dealing with the wait lists for popular titles or the fines for not returning on time
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:42 pm Reply with quote
hikaru004 wrote:
I think those comments that the mangaka made were tasteless and crude. The family survivors of pancreatic cancer patients should give them a little talk about the impact of death on them and the course of the cancer on the affected relative so they should know what they are wishing on copyright infringers.

I know it's their right to speak out but sometimes counting to ten before typing is better.


Not around these parts. Those types of comments allow the more righteous than thou to be on topic while on a soapbox.
Even though the topic of the article is about several authors wishing horrible diseases on ONE person. The topic of discussion has still turned into the same generic finger wagging session at fansubbers,scanalators,pirates,illegal streams, and mangacows present in every other thread.
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KAtchan15



Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 460
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:52 pm Reply with quote
hikaru004 wrote:

I know it's their right to speak out but sometimes counting to ten before typing is better.

Whether they were right or wrong, it's not like you can tell people how and what to feel.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

Even though the topic of the article is about several authors wishing horrible diseases on ONE person. The topic of discussion has still turned into the same generic finger wagging session at fansubbers,scanalators,pirates,illegal streams, and mangacows present in every other thread.
These are the sources of the mangakas rage and frustrations. It's the reason as to why the mangakas uttered such crude statements in the first place.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:57 pm Reply with quote
shawnji_us wrote:
Really, I just find it all so bizarre why there's so much hate directed at these people. Don't get me wrong, I understand why it's so upsetting to many, but everyone here seems so vindictive about it. I get that they did a stupid thing, but what a reaction everyone has to it.

You can understand why people are upset, but you wonder WHY they're showing their ire?

shawnji_us wrote:
I've invested thousands of dollars on anime VHS tapes, DVDs, Laserdiscs, and merchandise; into properties that I was otherwise completely unaware of prior to downloading them. Does that justify it? Absolutely not. I simply want to illustrate my position more clearly so you understand better where I stand before I go off trying to make any attempt at a point.

I've been living in Japan for the last year and a half now with my wife and anything we watch or read is obtained completely legally. I've been "clean", as you might call it, for years now. BUT, I would argue that I am contributing less to the industry now than I ever was previously. When I do read manga, it's usually at a Book-Off somewhere along with thousands of other people all over the country. If I want to sample a series, I go to the local Tsutaya and rent a DVD for 100 yen. Why not rent it on the Playstation Network at home and contribute more directly to the companies involved? It's 400 yen for a single episode and I'm cheap. Simple explanation, right? Point being, that there are plenty of other (legal) ways to subvert the industry.


The legal options support the system. I mean, hells bells, dude, I bought so many metal cds & lps back in the 80's. Then I had a baby & other things became a priority in my life. I still listen to the metal radio station.
shawnji_us wrote:
Youtube, naturally. I inadvertently stumbled onto it when I was looking for something else and after watching just a bit, I was hooked. The episode I watched had been uploaded illegally, I found, and was removed soon after.

God, I hate YouTube.
Anyway, there are any number of ways you might have discovered that title. If your first beer had been one stolen from 7-11 by a friend & you've bought every beer you've consumed since legally, it still doesn't make your friends stealing that beer back when ok.

shawnji_us wrote:
I bought all of Hirano's Hellsing that was available back when I was an exchange student in 2003. Funny that had it not been for a friend showing me a fansub back before I left (I bought all of Geneon's original DVD release as well shortly after), I would have known nothing about it.

I pre-ordered the box plus dvd before it was released in July 2002. I remember because it arrived the day before Comic-con started so I was too busy to watch it for 4 days. I was thrilled when Dark Horse announced the manga & have bought that one from the first volume-
which came out Christmas 2003.
So obviously just from the also available previews I figured out it was worth the $25 or $35 they wanted for the set. I remember driving all over town for the 2nd dvd in Sept. 2002
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hissatsu01



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 961
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:01 pm Reply with quote
hikaru004 wrote:
I think those comments that the mangaka made were tasteless and crude. The family survivors of pancreatic cancer patients should give them a little talk about the impact of death on them and the course of the cancer on the affected relative so they should know what they are wishing on copyright infringers.

In this very thread, multiple people with family members that have died of cancer, including pancreatic cancer (I'm one of those people), have already stated that these comments are not offensive to them. Much of comedy depends on unpleasant things happening to others. Should jokes only be limited to things that cannot possibly offend anyone? To quote Mel Brooks, "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die." Cue the outrage of the families of people who walked into open sewers and died.

ArsenicSteel wrote:
The topic of discussion has still turned into the same generic finger wagging session at fansubbers,scanalators,pirates,illegal streams, and mangacows present in every other thread.

Unlike the highly nuanced and well though out arguments of the "Me, me, me, gimme, gimme, gimme!" variety that are so sorely under-represented online.
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 831
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:04 pm Reply with quote
ChocoBar wrote:
So basically you're trying to say is that the people are wrong for liking an unpopular series? Let alone the fact that most publishers don't even announce it's cancellation and just stop publishing it, same thing happen to Zatch Bell, and yet you want to condemn people from using scanlations by fans who are just picking up the slack that the publisher failed to do?
Could you please pick an example that was actually unpopular and doesn't have an unusual and weird licensing issue? And Viz has never been good at PR to begin with...
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Tyrenol



Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 398
Location: Northern California
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:22 pm Reply with quote
"Telling people to die for daring to steal their works."

Serious Business. Wink
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:23 pm Reply with quote
hikaru004 wrote:
I think those comments that the mangaka made were tasteless and crude.


... and quite expressive. Don't forget the clarity with which they made their feelings known.

Again, its the creators of Black Lagoon and Hellsing we are talking about here. If they were afraid of putting anything in front of the public that was anything but elegant and refined ... uh, that would lead readers of Black Lagoon and Hellsing up a creek without a manga.

The author of Black Butler phrased it much more prettily, and people still abused her for it in these forums.
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