Forum - View topicREVIEW: Innocence Ghost in the Shell
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JETBLACK87
 Posts: 1073 |
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Do you or anyone else know what the story of the manga is? Because Red Spectacles and Stray Dog where made first and they had to different stories, none of which being the same a s Jin-Roh. They're good by the way(IMO). Very weird... |
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BrianRuh
Posts: 162 Location: West Lafayette, IN, USA |
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The manga is actually closer in feel to Jin-Roh than the previous live-action films in the Kerberos universe. In fact, if you go back and read the manga, you'll see that certain scenes and parts of characters made it into Jin-Roh. |
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JETBLACK87
Posts: 1073 |
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Yeah, I really need to buy those. |
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jfrog
 Posts: 925 Location: Seattle |
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Does the comic have the same characters as Stray Dog and The Red Spectacles? That was what disappointed me the most about Jin-Roh, I wanted to see more of Koichi Todome.
Dammit, Dark Horse needs to release a collected edition. Now. |
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BrianRuh
Posts: 162 Location: West Lafayette, IN, USA |
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Actually, they've already released one. Unfortunately it's WAY out of print and according to a bit of info from ANN a couple of years ago: "Fans hoping for a re-print or TPB of Hellhounds: Panzer Cops are unfortunately out of luck. The current right-holders of Hellhounds are not interested in allowing Studio Proteus to publish any re-prints." I don't know if the recent business dealings between Dark Horse and Studio Proteus change anything regarding the rights, but probably not. I wouldn't hold my breath for a collected TPB. With that said, I've found the individual comics aren't too hard to come by if you dig around a bit. I managed to acquire two complete sets just by keeping an eye out on Ebay. |
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Ryosei
Posts: 4 Location: Toronto |
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Horrendous review, a black sheep amongst ANN's normally insightful and uncharacteristically-intelligent critiquing. Considering AnimeOnDVD prides itself on staying its course of complete and unfettered adoration of any and all anime, it was refreshing to come to ANN every now and then and read honest, critical opinions.
This latest however, is appalling. It reeks of misunderstanding of narrative (due to the gross lack of information given revolving the plot and/or the reviewers feelings towards it) what with his predictable generalizations and inane banter (the use of the word 'pretention' was notably cringing). The tirades of the reviewer quickly devolve into a tired and shameful rant, completely refuting every bit of philosophical allegory in the film, lending to the notion that this reviewer simply didn't 'understand' the picture. The key aspect towards producing intelligent and respected critiques, is to have the reader finish with the knowledge that said reviewer was informed and justified in his opinion; that much cannot be said in the least for Mr. Reldman. I hope this isn't the beginning of a new trend of juvenile and rather narrow-focused reviewing from ANN... |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I think Gabriel's point was that there was no depth to the film and that the 'philosophical allegory' you're referring to is no deeper than a kiddy pool. He says the plot is pretty basic, made complicated only by the awkward layer of pretension heaped on to the film by the director, who's known for his murky philosophising. I think he's basically saying that the movie serves its purpose as an interesting and beautiful sci-fi picture but would be better off minus all the pointless, repetitive philosophy heaped on. Also, it's possible that not a lot of plot depth was given to avoid spoiling things too much for the reader. I know ANN has a no-spoiler policy regarding reviews. |
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eva05
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Well I returned from Japan about a month ago...I've actually seen Innocence and while I did think the writer made a few points I could definitely see, they seem predisposed against Oshi's work. In that respect I think the review is fine because if you liked some of his previous movies...well you know what you're getting here.
I would agree that Oshi is really playing it safe with this movie. There's a few new animation techniques(from a technical perspective) that were pulled off incredibly well but it's a similar pacing and story that Oshi has been exploring with his past few films IMHO, not that I have any problem with that...hell stuff I work on definitely has a lot of thematic similarity 
I did enjoy Innocence and I am looking forward to seeing it again in September. Oshi spent the past decade producing and writing, directing only Avalon...a movie I've never actually managed to stay awake through in one sitting. It looks great but the pacing is plodding...even for a fellow like me who loves those slowly paced Sergio Leone style stories. And even if a picture is worth a thousand words, story telling is more than just visuals ^_- I thought it was a bold move spoiler[making Motoko not the focus of the film and basically severing ties with the manga and making it his own...Then again I also wonder why he didn't just come up with some new characters.] About the only reason I can see to set that movie in the GITS universe was it was easier to get funding for a sequel to a wildly sucessful film than get money for a new set of characters that the producers hope Oshi's public would accept. I'm also not sure where some folks in this thread got the impression that GITS and Innocence were box office disasters in Japan. When I saw Innocence, it was in week 3 or 4 of it's life cycle and the theater was still at 80% capacity (I'd guess) on a weeknight showing! And a lot of the "theater only goods" were already sold out 
Damn the luck. j[/spoiler] |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Because they were and are. Innocence opened a #5 and slid off the charts instantly. I've seen movies that were huge failures close to the end of their run with a full theater - one show at one time in a film's life is not an indication of how the film is performing. The first film was recieved coldly and didn't come close to making even a fraction of its budget back; same goes for Innocence. |
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eva05
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If that was true, then how did they get more than 2x the budget to make Innocence? Producers do not invest in films out of altruism ^_-
Colossal failures never get more $ (or in this case yen) for sequels, hell they rarely, if ever, get sequels. BTW I'd really like to know your source for this financial info about GITS. I've never seen any solid numbers on it broken down by territory. j |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Because they didn't make it expressly for the Japanese. They made it to succeed in America. Trust me, there would be no sequel if the first film hadn't sold a bazillion copies in American on video. Notice how the film isn't called 'Ghost in the Shell' in Japan? It's just called Innocence. Same thing happened with Escaflowne; the TV series failed on Japanese TV in the ratings, but found amazing success on video in America, so they made a film. It opened in Japan first, but it was made for Americans. And I know this because I was told by the folks who put the film together including Oshii himself. You can see the interview for yourself in the next Anime Insider magazine, hitting news stands June 16! 
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eva05
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Anime Insider you say?
I'll keep my eyes peeled ^_- Thanks. BTW is the Western version going to be called GITS:Innocence? j |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Yep. |
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Ryosei
Posts: 4 Location: Toronto |
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I think this is why I'm becoming ever more disappointed with ANN as of late, reason being the increasing frequency of misinformation presented, appalling for what is considering the premier US anime news site online today.
Blatantly and wholly incorrect. I'm willing to bet you never once gazed at the BO charts for Japan during the time Innocence was in theaters. Innocence opened at #5, and remained on the Top 10 chart for 6 straight weeks. Its entries were as followed: 5th, 7th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 9th. For the actual charts, please go here: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/intl/japan/ And as for this:
Here are the BO numbers for Innocence during it's 6th weekend in the Japanese Top 10, directly from Box Office Mojo: Weekend Total: $292,001 (-20%). Theaters: 280 (+-0%). Total 6 Week BO Tally: $7,850,644. Considering this was for the weekend of April 10-11, and the fact that as of my latest checks, Innocence is still playing in theaters, we can use a few simple generalized formulas to figure out its current BO takes. Let's assume, despite the 0% change week-to-week displayed in the numbers above, that from the weekend of April 10-11 to now, Innocence's theater count dropped approximately 20% each week. In addition, I will use the same ratio of BO income per theater as the above week, while deducting an additional 15% each additional week. Also, if you observe the past performance of near all films released in Japan, the BO take during the week is usually identical, if not more, than the BO take during the weekend, a stark difference to the US BO. As such, I will be adding each weekend estimation again to the final total as the weekday takes, with each subsequent week declining in revenue by 20%. (I hope you all understood that. Layman's terms: Each new estimation minus an additional 20% becomes that same week's weekday tally). I believe all of these to be fair and accurate estimations of performance. So, considering this past weekend was Innocence's 12 week in theaters, here is the final projected BO total, using the above formula (feel free to calculate it yourself as well): Last Weekend's Est. BO Take: $29,625. Est. Theaters: 75. Total Est. BO Tally: $8,863,521. Half of the film's enormous budget in both a region where theatrical anime release revenues are declining, and on a picture that even its creators mention will likely succeed moreso internationally. I'd hardly call that a failure. In fact, I'd call it quite a success. Remember as well, that breaking $10 million US in the Japanese BO is roughly equivalent to ~$70-80 in the US. As for the original GITS BO totals, I've been unable to find any reliable numbers pertaining to such, and thus cannot, and will not, comment. Finally, one last response:
This annoyed me to no end, most especially the bolded section (keep in mind Zac I've no beef with you at all, you're merely the messenger; my disappointment is solely with the reviewer Gabriel). For one, to even comtemplate the ego of Gabriel to fully disregard each and every bit of philosophy presented in the film in one freakin' screening is incomprehendable. Considering each and every review written so far on the film (minus the god-awful JoBlo rant) has noted its extreme complexity and challenging nature (neither are cons), I find it quite humorous that Gabriel thinks so highly of himself to believe that he was able to see through, not only a large portion of the so-called pretentious nature of the film, but the entirety of it! Please. His entire review reeks of an individual who has been presented with a challenge, and is either uninterested or incapable of tackling it. As such, Gabriel has merely masked that with tired and generic laments such as the films' supposed precociousness, or its 'repetitive philosophy', whatever the hell that means. As for the bolded sentence, that is simply due to my preception that this reviewer's opinion towards Oshii (as well as your own) is the same, typically uninformed and somehow jaded stance that his philosophy is 'murky' (which means?). I've always found it intriguing how so many suddenly acquire such knowledge of philosophy when it is dealt with in cinema, but elsewhere those same individuals seem to slink back into their uninformed cacoons. Philosophy by it's very nature is initially incomprehendable. For someone to propose that after only a single viewing of a film said to be (by all) as complex as Innocence is to be, he is able to understand everything to a level able to seperate pretention from position, is both unprofessional and simply, uninformed. It is far easier to see nothing where there is something, than it is to see something where there is nothing. Thank you for your time. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Ryosei, the numbers you're using are open to interpretation. It's been characterized to me on several levels by several people as a failure in Japan. It isn't going to make it in to the black there. It slid instantly out of the top 5 after debuting at the bottom. The critical reaction to the film (according to the people I spoke with, who I unfortunately can't reveal due to several factors) in Japan was mostly negative.
The numbers you state are either hopeful or negative, but they are by no means favorable. Simply because it correlates to a lot more money in America doesn't make it a lot more money nor does that notion pay for the film; you realize that in order to turn a profit, the film needs to break some $40 million dollars, yes? $20m is a conservative estimate that does not include advertising or marketing costs. In my eyes, and in the eyes of many others, it is not a success story in Japan. You can interpet those numbers how you like, I suppose. As for your comments on Gabriel's review of the film's philosophy, I can only say that you should probably see the film for yourself before claiming that it's some kind of deep philosophical masterpiece. I absolutely loved the original Ghost in the Shell, Jin-Roh, and Beautiful Dreamer; I did find Oshii's heavy-handed philosophizin' to be tiresome at points but these were thought-provoking, well-crafted films. Having seen Innocence, I can say that I agree with most of Gabriel's assessment. This film seems to really want you to think it's incredibly deep but the concepts he's talking about just aren't that complicated. He restates himself several times in the film and overall the philosophical portion of the film seems lightweight and flawed to me. I'm no genius but I do know that interpretations of these things are highly subjective and if you want to call me an idiot (I've got my degree in film and took a heck of a lot of philosophy courses before I graduated, so I'd like to think I know something of where I speak, but I'm not always right), please do, but I just didn't see that much depth in the film. I do appreciate your fair candor and propensity for rational argument, though. Perhaps Mr. Reldman will come and comment on this himself at some point and clear the air for you? Unfortunately I don't speak for him and can only tell you what I know, having seen the film. |
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