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NonoAsumy
Joined: 29 Apr 2011
Posts: 90
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:13 pm
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Anymouse
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:32 pm
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Interesting movie, but probably not relevant to this.
citizenplain wrote: | You can't be forced to do something willingly. Coercion means that you don't get a choice. And why go through such a nuanced argument to defend an admitted rapist? |
Since when have I defended the rapist? You enjoy putting words in other peoples mouths.
I am not disputing the fact that the man lied to the girl. What I am disputing is how that changes the moral significance of the girls actions.
From the article:
Quote: | He allegedly befriended the girl on Facebook and through mobile phone conversations under the name "Michael Allen," and then engaged in sexual explicit conduct twice in the following month. |
Doesn't sound very coerced on her part.
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citizenplain
Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 29
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:12 pm
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Anymouse wrote: | Interesting movie, but probably not relevant to this.
citizenplain wrote: | You can't be forced to do something willingly. Coercion means that you don't get a choice. And why go through such a nuanced argument to defend an admitted rapist? |
Since when have I defended the rapist? You enjoy putting words in other peoples mouths.
I am not disputing the fact that the man lied to the girl. What I am disputing is how that changes the moral significance of the girls actions.
From the article:
Quote: | He allegedly befriended the girl on Facebook and through mobile phone conversations under the name "Michael Allen," and then engaged in sexual explicit conduct twice in the following month. |
Doesn't sound very coerced on her part. |
Um, saying that I enjoy putting words in people's mouths is, in fact, putting words in my mouth That aside, you appear by your arguments to believe the girl is at somehow fault here, which disturbing and in fact wrong. He did not only lie to, but also raped a child. She didn't volunteer to be sexually abused.
Doesn't sound coerced? Did you miss the part of the headline where it says "man pleads guilty to coercing girl he met at anime con"? Are you choosing to ignore that? By irrelevantly questioning the victim's morality you are displaying tacit sympathy for an admitted rapist.
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dizzywulf
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 102
Location: Wakayama, Japan
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:03 pm
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Sailor S wrote: | (see the Duke lacrosse case for reasons to why you shouldn't always assume the woman is innocent) |
What reality do you live in where everyone always assumes the woman is innocent?
It's always: What was she wearing? How much make-up did she have on? Has she ever had a boyfriend before? How hard did she fight back? Well she shouldn't have been: at that party/drinking/ drinking that much/walking in that area/out at night/out during the day/ by herself/ with those friends/on a date/such a slut/in such a crowded area/ in such an isolated area/wearing those shoes/
Because everyone knows that guys can't control themselves and doing any of the above means that she probably wanted to seduce him and she's just saying rape because she doesn't want to be labeled the slut she is and she wanted to ruin him.
That is what society says.
Isn't it evident from this very thread that many people think that the girl shared some part of the blame?
She doesn't. She is a victim. The only one at fault is the rapist.
Misogyny runs very deep in this culture.
I wish I lived in your imaginary reality.
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Mike Toole
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-plain.gif) Subscriber
ANN Columnist
Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 105
Location: THE GOOD OLE U-S-A
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:27 pm
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haldenlith wrote: | I feel the girl should get some sort of punishment as well. |
Kougeru wrote: | I'm hoping she lost her cellphone ,interent use ect ect ect. |
Goggen wrote: | I do wonder about the girl, though. |
hikaricore wrote: | I have to wonder who did the coercing... she should be held accountable in some way as well. |
willag wrote: | I do think the parents and the victim share some blame as well, and hopefully they treat this as a lesson. I think the parents could have been more aware of her activities online, and she could have used better judgment. |
Youkai Warrior wrote: | But I do hope the girl learned her lesson. |
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote: | at 13 years old, the girl isn't exactly incapable of understanding what she is doing. |
asimpson2006 wrote: | I do agree both parties share the blame |
Strawberryelle wrote: | she wasn't "raped" in the true sense of the word. |
Anymouse wrote: | If that's true then she's a damn slut. |
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Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:38 pm
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citizenplain wrote: |
You can't be forced to do something willingly. Coercion means that you don't get a choice. |
No coercion is conditioning the child to think that that something is the right thing to choose to do.
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hikaricore
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 58
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:58 pm
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Mike Toole wrote: |
hikaricore wrote: | I have to wonder who did the coercing... she should be held accountable in some way as well. |
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If you would be so kind as to not quote me out of context and or truncate said quotes. Thanks.
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Anymouse
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:10 pm
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Mohawk52 wrote: | coercion is conditioning the child to think that something is the right thing to choose to do. |
True. And our public schools do that in many parts of this country. "Remember to always use a condom! [Whenever you have casual sex with a Facebook Friend]"
Quote: | If you would be so kind as to not quote me out of context and or truncate said quotes. Thanks. |
Don't worry, the thought police have their ways of making you talk.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:10 pm
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hikaricore wrote: |
Mike Toole wrote: |
hikaricore wrote: | I have to wonder who did the coercing... she should be held accountable in some way as well. |
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If you would be so kind as to not quote me out of context and or truncate said quotes. Thanks. |
Mike didn't quote you wildly out of context. That's the argument you made, and have been making the entire time. If the argument you're presenting requires 8000 words of backpedaling, rewording and so-called "nuance" to not make it sound like you're defending a rapist and blaming his victim, you may not want to be making that argument in the first place.
While I know some people are naturally wired to always play devil's advocate or try and "blow your mind" with their alterna-logic, it isn't worth it to do the "well if you think about it this way" argument thing in cases like these because it is virtually impossible to not come across as though you're siding with the rapist on this. Common sense dictates that this isn't really an argument worth having in the first place and you're not going to come out on the other side looking like the good guy if you walk down the "well maybe she's to blame too!" road for even a second, even hypothetically, even if you're just playing games or trolling or whatever. Not worth it. And I don't know why any of you think it is.
This thread makes me sad.
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slickwolfie
Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 33
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:16 pm
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Zac wrote: |
This thread makes me sad. |
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Slick
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Maur
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 55
Location: SLC - Not Quite NYC
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:24 pm
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What I don't understand in all this is:
Quote: | He allegedly befriended the girl on Facebook and through mobile phone conversations under the name "Michael Allen," and then engaged in sexual explicit conduct twice in the following month.
According to attorney's office, the girl later discovered Alper's true identity |
Wait, so she was okay with having sex with a guy over twice her age until she found out he was a pedophile?
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Surrender Artist
Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 3264
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:25 pm
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Anymouse wrote: |
Mohawk52 wrote: | coercion is conditioning the child to think that something is the right thing to choose to do. |
True. And our public schools do that in many parts of this country. "Remember to always use a condom! [Whenever you have casual sex with a Facebook Friend]" |
Yes, just like they railroad students into cars with its immoral driver's education classes.
slickwolfie wrote: |
Zac wrote: |
This thread makes me sad. |
I couldn't have said it better myself. |
Thirded. I'm suddenly really glad that I bought a bottle of scotch tonight.
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Anymouse
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:27 pm
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Zac wrote: | you're not going to come out on the other side looking like the good guy if you walk down the "well maybe she's to blame too!" road for even a second, even hypothetically, even if you're just playing games or trolling or whatever. Not worth it. And I don't know why any of you think it is. |
Here is why I think it is:
Article wrote: | He allegedly befriended the girl on Facebook and through mobile phone conversations under the name "Michael Allen," and then engaged in sexual explicit conduct twice in the following month. |
I would never do such a thing at any age, not even with the cutest lady out there. Why would he? Why would she? The simple answer is because they were both willing to have sexual relations. This isn't bizarro logic, this isn't difficult reasoning. This is common sense.
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slickwolfie
Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 33
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:31 pm
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Anymouse wrote: |
Zac wrote: | you're not going to come out on the other side looking like the good guy if you walk down the "well maybe she's to blame too!" road for even a second, even hypothetically, even if you're just playing games or trolling or whatever. Not worth it. And I don't know why any of you think it is. |
Here is why I think it is:
Article wrote: | He allegedly befriended the girl on Facebook and through mobile phone conversations under the name "Michael Allen," and then engaged in sexual explicit conduct twice in the following month. |
I would never do such a thing at any age, not even with the cutest lady out there. Why would he? Why would she? The simple answer is because they were both willing to have sexual relations. This isn't bizarro logic, this isn't difficult reasoning. This is common sense. |
Would it be any different if this girl was 8 years old and met someone on facebook, conversed and willingly had sexual relations with this guy? Would you still place any blame the child?
Slick
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Anymouse
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:36 pm
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If the girl had not had puberty, she could not possibly have made a willing choice. There are very few 8 year olds who have. The average age of actual puberty is 12 and 1/2.
But if an 8 year old had a strange medical condition and looked 13 then I think she could share some blame.
The following shows what a 9 year old is capable of. The girl below is the same age as me. I was still a little boy.
Young Healthy Mother
Last edited by Anymouse on Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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