Forum - View topicRe: Nudity in Elfen Lied
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riccardo
Posts: 136 Location: Melbourne, Australia |
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I was honestly too shocked and frankly disgusted by the graphicly over the top violence to be worried about the nudity. I was not entirely prepared for either, though, having been shown the series out of the blue without having heard of it or read the cover before.
I don't really understand animated nudity, or find it arousing anyway (its OK if somebody does, not judging) but I don' think that was the real focus of the scenes in Elfen Lied, it seemed to me they were emphasising this girl ripping guys in half, regrdless of her state of dress or undress. One of my least favourites, to be honest. |
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ishmael
Posts: 128 |
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I loved Elfen Lied, but some nudity was unnecessary. Yet, for the mkst part, I think it added to the shock value. As for symbolism and such, you can interpret it like that if you like, or not, but like many possible interpretation of an element in EL, there is no right or wrong answer. But I think some people come unnecessarily hard on this series because of the nudity.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18247 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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While it's certainly possible that some deeper meaning was intended by the way the series used its nudity, at the time I was initially watching it I was fully convinced that most of it was just fan service, and my opinion on that hasn't changed over time.
Let's be honest here: Elfen Lied is a horror series thinly veiled as a semi-harem series. Like all but the most sophisticated horror series, its focus is primarily on visceral reactions, and that the series does very, very well, whether it's the nudity, the graphic content, the cruelty, or (most disturbing to me) the spoiler[strongly implied child molestation involving Mayu]. While it may have been intended, in a very undercurrent sense, to imply deeper meaning, the nudity is primarily there to get a reaction. In only a couple of places did I feel that the use of nudity was obviously trying to depict more than just ordinary fan service. One was in the scenes showing Nana and the other Diclonius chained up to the wall, bloodied, while their abilities were being tested. In this case the nudity was clearly part of the whole image of abuse and degradation. The same can be said for Mayu's scene - although I really could have done without that one. For the most part, though, the nudity was just part of the overall visual scheme of the series, which I thought worked extremely well. It, the soundtrack, and the efficient storytelling were plenty enough for me to rate this series highly. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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I got a reaction here, which is certainly rewarding.
I think that one just briefly mentioned the nudity in Elfen Lied, and it was more about me just stating that I think it's overrated. That one was only an exchange that last about... two or three posts, I think. But yeah, whatever makes for an interesting discussion.
No, rather that because of the elements that created and developed the show, it wasn't meant to be taken truly seriously. A story can still obviously be some enormous amalgamation of genres and still be serious.
People can find value in about any show/movie/book that isn't part of the intentional draw. I haven't seen Kite, so I really can't comment there. However, even if somebody likes something for reasons other than what it was intended for, it still doesn't change what it is.
Air (which I do like a good deal, so it's not like I'm completely adverse to moe), Kanon, etc. do have origins in those ren'ai games. Their anime adaptions are devoid of these elements. Thus, even though loli-hentai lovers may get a real thrill out of it, now any other person can enjoy them. I agree wholeheartedly on that. However, the issue here is that the Elfen Lied anime is not devoid of fanservice, moe, harem, and borderline lolicon elements. The violence is pretty much the same in both versions, and some scenes of fanservice were merely omitted. There is more than enough fanservice present in the anime, even by simply looking at those type of scenes where "the audience is supposed to laugh at Nyuu for playing with breasts." The BESM character designs with the exaggerated eyes and such remain the same. Minus one female character, the "harem gathering" remains the same.
As I mention above, I wasn't asserting that comedy ruins any show from attempting to be serious. Yes, some of the questions that it raises can be discussed, however, to honestly believe that Elfen Lied is supposed to be taken in a such a gravely serious manner with cliché after cliché after cliché popping up, along with a meandering direction (as stated in the link to AoD, Elfen Lied doesn't exactly define what it wants to be) is far too much of a stretch.
I do agree there.
The second sentence here is partly of what I'm getting at, which I'll clarify on later.
That would actually be an interesting theme to explore, but EL's feet don't quite fit into those boots. When we have camera angles, bath scenes (emphasis on this due to your comments concerning Nyuu learning to take baths), "arousing reactions" by the characters to Nyuu's antics (Kouta's cousin, whose name escapes me, is an example), etc. it diverts the attention away from one of how a human-like being who is ignorant of traditions and rules in society such as wearing clothing to hide one's nakedeness. The whole reasoning by the creators as to why to put them in a position where we have lingering camera angles on their nude bodies comes across as being contrived. It is just that, an excuse to show it.
The type of manipulation I refer to is one where the creators construct the characters to make one forcefully feel sympathy for them and/or their situation. It isn't like, say, having the setting of the story take place in a battle during wartime and we see brutal actions taken place. When you have the entire cast as a massive group of stereotypes and plot developments occur because they have to occur, then that's a problem. A sweet, innocent girl turned into a vicious killer because of lack of love, spoiler[her puppy get killed, and the boy she likes apparently being close to his female cousin?] Oh yeah, and she turns into the naive girl practically on the fly that says cute little phrases. For a clearer argument, see my reply to Zero89.
Man, the Internet never ceases to amuse me.
Correct! But I had an ulterior motive by linking to the AoD thread, to give further reasoning behind what many might label "elitism and madness."
If it's to show how ignorant she is of everyday things that we become accustomed to in society, of course there are other ways. Nudity isn't the the only way to get across to the audience that Lucy was subjected to experiments and doesn't know how to handle herself in society.
The thread idea? Or something else? I don't quite understand what you're asking, sorry. I more or less decided to start the thread just to try to present an interesting discussion, one that neither puts hate on either side's opinions. To cause some people to hopefully take a step back and think, "Wait, is this really the case or not?". If they disagree, I'm fine with that. However, if someone posts here without having thought of whether the nudity in Elfen Lied is largely gratuitous, by just posting away as an angry fan ready to defend a favorite show of theirs, then they have missed my intentions.
Then we'll find out if you can come to understand what I am trying to get at.
Tell me, what do you think the intended audience is for the Elfen Lied manga? Why would it not be similar for the Elfen Lied anime? Even though there are changes -- that's a given -- the core elements remain intact. To say that the intended audience suddenly changes completely from one to another while bearing in mind that the story is primarily the same is, frankly, ridiculous.
Now did I say that every single anime that the studio has worked on is a hentai? No. I haven't seen Himawari nor I"s Pure, but I have read some of the manga. Assuming that the OVA adaption didn't change in tone and execution a great deal, there is fanservice in I"s.
Clichés in set ups can be forgiven, but clichés in execution and development indicate that something is not meant to be taken as seriously as so many fans of Elfen Lied do.
Again, where did I say that a show cannot handle more than one component? Yes, numerous amounts of works in any medium do this. But the failing I see in EL is that it tries to be so many things at once and becomes a something of a mess.
Uh, did you just indirectly admit that EL is a parody?
Yes, they did. But why not show him naked, or come up with some little boy and have him go about in the nude?
Tell me, do you cry when watching Rambo, or any over-the-top Hollywood movie that emphasizes explosions with style over substance? Because that's what Gantz, anime and manga, essentially is (less explosions and more guts, though).
Uh, no. You mentioned Rumblings Hearts. Let's make a comparison here. The whole thing hinges on the fact that for some reason, spoiler[the girl can't realize after waking up that time has passed.] The RahXephon movie also takes a similar route, with spoiler[Ayato somehow not remembering Haruka even after such a short time.] That kind of contrived storytelling bothers me because events happen because the creator forces them to happen, not because they happen naturally with the story. Here is a portion of the interview which I speak of, which is ironically relevant considering that the situation talked about below fits like a glove with EL :
Oshii's last three paragraphs are the points I'm getting at.
Oh, I dunno. You're asking for a way to convey the message of how people raised in inhuman conditions turn into people that are severely scarred and are "beasts"? Without nudity at all? How about showing them being apprehensive of human contact? Of viewing and treating any life around them with little value? Or perhaps you'd like to see how general differences in behavior between the ones who were raised in healthy conditions versus those who weren't? Want some anime that tackles the theme you mentioned? Black Lagoon, even though it's a mindless shot-'em-up action story, shows how screwed up the people who are at the bottom of the barrel are. The second season starts to really focus on that theme, particularly in the final arc. It's gritty, and while it does have nudity, it never emphasizes it. Texhnolyze does what you're asking for to arguably the most intense degree that any anime has ever done. The city of Lukuss is an absolute living hell and its occupants representing humanity in such an immensely raw form. It has sexuality, for instance, in the first episode, but it's presented in a dry, emotionally detached form. And last but certainly not least one cannot ignore Now and Then, Here and There for being downright unrelenting in its portrayal of children who are brought up, bred to only fight. Key even quotes one important line in his review:
All of that without a gratuitous emphasis on nudity. Is that so hard?
Honestly, I was surprised that it took until the bottom of page one to get a response like that. |
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lazybastard
Posts: 22 |
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What exactly are you whining about again? EL is hardly the only place you find gratuitous nudity. Even the supposedly "deep" shows got plenty of it: Evangelion's got its blatant fan service. Ghost in the shell (movie) got its topless invisibility. and Texhnolyze got its topless fortune-telling + excessive nude shots of that blond doc.
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Hey there, Straw man. Oh, and whenever did I say that fanservice is non-existant in deep anime*? There's nudity in Paranoia Agent. In Serial Experiments Lain the title character wears a cute bear suit. Yet, for whatever sexual fanservice is present in all of these, is it the main draw for the intended audience of those anime? *I like Evangelion, but its only depth is to be found in its characters, otherwise it's not exactly what one could rightfully label as being "intelligent." |
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lazybastard
Posts: 22 |
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Hey there, Whiny boy. And what exactly makes you think the main draw for EL is is the fan service? Previously posters here already pointed out what they interpret as the symbolisms behind the show. Yet you only see the nudity and violence, and none of the symbolism. That's your problem, not the show's. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Oh-ho, this one is filled with some real spirit!
Because its one of the sellings points for its target audience? I mean, geez, I'm not saying something foolish such as people can't enjoy shows for which they don't below to the target audience, but it doesn't change the fact that the whole set up of the show as Key mentioned was to get a reaction out of its audience. If the nudity can't fall in line for solely being there for either "fanservice," "parody," "shock value," whatever then I don't know what can.
Yeah, and some guy over the Internet can state that some random hentai title that involves nurses or office ladies is actually symbolizing the sexist views and situations that females are placed in society, particularly in jobs, and struggle to overcome the males that opress. I'd tell him to shut up and fap. |
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lazybastard
Posts: 22 |
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As far as I can recall, less than half of the nudity in EL was actually fanservice. The remainder mostly showed how diclonius were degraded and treated as less than human in the lab. Now please don't tell me you actually thought that the image of a naked, bloodied girl chained to a wall was supposed to be arousing?
Of course it can. And some, BUT NOT ALL, of violence and nudity in EL falls under that. The only examples that I can think of where the ONLY point was fanservice and shock value would be Gantz, along with the second half of Texhnolyze.
So you are basically saying that other people's opinions don't matter, only yours. Last edited by lazybastard on Fri May 18, 2007 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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To some people it probably was, you never know what kind of sick people are out there. I can agree though that what was in the lab wasn't fanservice, they were just guinea pigs. If you were to consider how Nyuu was being pictured, you could call it fanservice. A good segment of it though, in my mind, was not. If it was more comedy based, you could have called more of it fanservice. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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To most, probably not. To a few, probably.
Y'know, you could just say that you dislike Texhnolyze spoiler[after Yoshi died] and drop the issue so we wouldn't be squabbling with no resolution in sight. I'd do the same with Elfen Lied if you did since we both aren't gonna budge.
How about I'm stating that people can try to interpret something however they want but, like I've said many times before, it won't change what it is. Smut with brains is smut with brains. A hentai is a hentai. A harem is a harem. Elfen Lied has these harem elements. If someone disagrees on me saying that at least the majority of the nudity is there for fanservice, then I'm fine with it. If they like the show, more power to them. But all the same they cannot deny that EL uses so many clichés from so many different genres. |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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With the comedy missing
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lazybastard
Posts: 22 |
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What makes you think the two issues are related??? I only mentioned Texhnolyze here since I watched it a week back and it's still fairly fresh on my memory. And did you see me whine endlessly about gratuituous violence and nudity in the Texhnolyze thread?
Sure Elfen Lied got elements of harem, it also got elements of action, horror, romance, and ecchi. Its got deep symbolism regarding human nature, it also got plenty of cliches. SO WHAT? Is there just something about the fact that the creators crafted anime that's enjoyable to a good number of people, by balancing all these various elements, somehow UPSETTING to you? That you have to constantly slander it as smut? |
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dgreater1
Posts: 307 Location: in the Phillipine's AIR space with Misuzu |
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Don't worry, I won't make my post long... I hate reading very long post
I'm not pointing about how ignorant or blah blah blah she was, you know. I was just telling you that there are things that it's hard to symbolize without using violence and nude. You think you can symbolize inhuman cruelty without resorting to violence? You think you can easily symbolize the inhuman discrimination that the Naz* did with the Je*s without resorting to showing violence? You think you can symbolize how weak women are sexually abuse to the extreme without showing her naked? Well, maybe you can but that will lower how much you want to portray the real thing. Though I have to agree that portraying it to look like the real thing isn't always good since I myself don't approve of mindless violence and nude. But for EL, I don't really see it as mindless and that's what I think. If you don't accept that I don't see it as mindless then that's your problem anymore, not mine
Seems you didn't get his question right so I'll ask... what's the difference between a female diclonius and a male diclonius? What does a female diclonius have that male diclonius doesn't have? Why aren't they experimenting with male diclonius? Anyway... it has to be female diclonius because spoiler[they have that thing powerful thing (which Zero89 was talking about)] that male diclonius doesn't have.
You're making it sound like fan service is one of its selling point, Okay, I'll agree with you if what you see most in Elfen Lied is fan service. But I'm not on your side since I don't see the nudes as fan service. Anyway I don't always see think nude = fan service. Anyway ignore me. Edit: Something went wrong with my post again |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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I do believe Elfen Lied is a serious show and also an emotional one - It portrays the cruelty of humanity effectively, and succeeded (for me, at least) in drawing the viewer into the characters and into feeling empathy and sorrow for their miserable lives. The nudity and violence were utilized effectively, IMO, to portray the horror of the crimes being carried out against the diclonius, and were wholly appropriate.
That said, I would have to strongly disagree with anyone who believes Elfen Lied to be complex or contain many symbolic elements. The show is quite simplistic actually; besides carrying some heavy & powerful themes the plot is very straightforward, the message being delivered is strongly present and easily noticed from a first watch, the themes are easy to comprehend, and I found very little to consider or contemplate besides what was clearly presented to the viewer in a first watch. I don't think it was EL's intent to be any sort of complex or to hold many underlying messages & themes so that the viewer wil go "Wow that's brilliant!!!!!" It appeals more to the heart than the brain, and that was the way it was meant to be. I can't bring myself to consider EL cheap or corny in any sort of way; however I do understand where that argument is coming from. I believe that if you weren't moved by the show in any sort of way then you will tend to lean toward consider it a poor production (aka lame), and I completely respect that, seeing as how I've often found myself in the same situation (with an unchanging opinion of the show).
Take the time to actually explain this so-called symbolism you're talking about, and then you will have a well-crafted argument. Right now, all you're doing is throwing out "it has symbolism", without explaining how or where the symbolism was inserted in the show whatsoever. I personally hardly see any symbolism in the series. There are certainly powerful adult themes, yes - but symbolism? I don't think so. The music box perhaps, but even that barely seems to qualify, as what it symbolises is quite apparent from the surface.
You tend to always jump to way extremes, and demonize others . I find that quite disrespectful, regardless of whether the person is in the right or the wrong. |
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